[JenBurdoo] The curious date

[JenBurdoo1]

Kermit and Lisa both experience difficulty and discomfort when meeting others for the first time. But when they meet each other, they get along almost at once. Why?

[trebor2]

Is Kermit a HA? Is Lisa? Does one of them have a disability? Do they both? Does the difficulty they regularly experience have to do with disability? With a language barrier? Is it relevant the circumstances under which K and L meet?

[JenBurdoo1]

Is Kermit a HA? Yes. Is Lisa? Yes. Does one of them have a disability? Do they both? Does the difficulty they regularly experience have to do with disability? With a language barrier? Is it relevant the circumstances under which K and L meet? No to the rest.

[GalFisk]

Does this happen due to the circumstances in which they meet? If they didn't experience difficulty and discomfort when meeting others for the first time, would they still have gotten along almost at once when they first met? Do they become close friends? Lovers? Do they meet by being members of the same group? Do they connect over similarities?

[Sarisberie]

Do they get along BECAUSE they both have difficulty and discomfort in meeting others?

[JenBurdoo1]

Does this happen due to the circumstances in which they meet? No. If they didn't experience difficulty and discomfort when meeting others for the first time, would they still have gotten along almost at once when they first met? No. Do they become close friends? Assume this. Lovers? Do they meet by being members of the same group? No. Do they connect over similarities? Yes.

Do they get along BECAUSE they both have difficulty and discomfort in meeting others? Yes.

[trebor2]

Is the discomfort physical? Mental? Are their jobs relevant? Hobbies?

Do other people experience discomfort and difficulty when meeting either of them? Are other people, when meeting K/L, even aware that K/L is experiencing difficulty/discomfort? Does this happen when K/L meet people in person? Over video? Over the phone? Via written correspondence?

Does the difficulty have to do with communication? Getting someone to do something? Achieving a desired outcome? Does the difficulty pertain to something mental? Physical? Does this happen with every person they meet, other than other people who have the same issue? Do they only experience this when meeting new people in a certain situation or certain situations?

[GalFisk]

Do they suffer from autism? Social anxiety? Some other known disorder? Relevant? Relevant how they end up meeting in the first place? Are they both at a party or other crowded event, and trying to find a place where they can relax?

[JenBurdoo1]

Is the discomfort physical? Mental? This. Are their jobs relevant? Hobbies? No.

Do other people experience discomfort and difficulty when meeting either of them? No. Are other people, when meeting K/L, even aware that K/L is experiencing difficulty/discomfort? Assume no. Does this happen when K/L meet people in person? This. Over video? Over the phone? Via written correspondence? Others are likely, but less common.

Does the difficulty have to do with communication? Communication is involved. Getting someone to do something? No. Achieving a desired outcome? No. Does the difficulty pertain to something mental? Arguably. Physical? Does this happen with every person they meet, other than other people who have the same issue? Assume yes. Do they only experience this when meeting new people in a certain situation or certain situations? Certain situations make it more likely, but it can happen anywhere or at any time..

Do they suffer from autism? No. Social anxiety? Only over this particular aspect - ie, it causes great anxiety. Some other known disorder? No. Relevant? Yes. Relevant how they end up meeting in the first place? No, assume a date. Are they both at a party or other crowded event, and trying to find a place where they can relax? No, but this issue commonly happens to them at parties.

[trebor2]

Is their ethnicity relevant? Do they share a dialect? Do they not do something most other people do? Do they do something most other people don't do? Is their anxiety caused by the expectation that they might be put in an uncomfortable situation? WAG: are they teetotallers, and people they meet are always asking them to go for drinks?

Do Kermit and Lisa have to verbally speak with each other to know they have this in common? Just look at each other? Communicate non-verbally? Observe each other's behaviour?

Did something happen in their past that is relevant here?

[JenBurdoo1]

Is their ethnicity relevant? No. Do they share a dialect? Irr. Do they not do something most other people do? No. Do they do something most other people don't do? No. Is their anxiety caused by the expectation that they might be put in an uncomfortable situation? Yes. WAG: are they teetotallers, and people they meet are always asking them to go for drinks? Good thought, but no.

Do Kermit and Lisa have to verbally speak with each other to know they have this in common? Lisa wouldn't have to, but Kermit would. Just look at each other? No. Communicate non-verbally? This would work. Observe each other's behaviour? No.

Did something happen in their past that is relevant here? Yes.

[GalFisk]

Did the same thing happen in both their pasts? In the same place? At the same time? Had they met before? Relevant how they ended up on a date? Were they on a date with each other? With other people? Were they suffering from this anxiety when they first met? Or was one of them? Relevant where they met? Dud they meet in a bathroom neither wanted to leave?

[JenBurdoo1]

Did the same thing happen in both their pasts? Yes. In the same place? Irr. At the same time? Irr. Had they met before? No. Relevant how they ended up on a date? Assume a blind date. Were they on a date with each other? Yes. With other people? No. Were they suffering from this anxiety when they first met? Yes. Or was one of them? Both of them. Relevant where they met? No. Did they meet in a bathroom neither wanted to leave? No.

[GalFisk]

Did Kermit ask Lisa if she was uncomfortable? Mention that he was? Did he mention the event in his past? Did they connect because they'd been through the same thing? Was the thing in their past caused by a person? Group? Event? Technology? Deliberately? Bullying relevant? Did it happen in childhood?

[JenBurdoo1]

Did Kermit ask Lisa if she was uncomfortable? No. Mention that he was? Yes. Did he mention the event in his past? Yes. Did they connect because they'd been through the same thing? Yes. Was the thing in their past caused by a person? This. Group? Event? Technology? Deliberately? Yes. Bullying relevant? Yes, but not exclusively. Did it happen in childhood? Yes.

[GalFisk]

Did the same person cause this to both people? Did they connect as victims of the same thing? The same person? Was the person(s) who caused this adult at the time? Teenaged? A child also? Was it a person(s) that held authority over them? Such as a parent? Teacher?

[JenBurdoo1]

Did the same person cause this to both people? No. Did they connect as victims of the same thing? Yes. The same person? No. Was the person(s) who caused this adult at the time? This. Teenaged? A child also? Was it a person(s) that held authority over them? Yes. Such as a parent? This. Teacher?

[GalFisk]

"Stranger danger" relevant? Some other cultural parenting thing? Did the parents do this out of malice? Were they trying to do good? Was the thing they did a punishment?

[trebor2]

Child abuse relevant? Spousal abuse? Divorce? Death of a parent?

[Sarisberie]

Is prosopagnosia relevant? Was/were the parent/s in question narcissist/s or similar? Other kinds of abuse or cruelty? Does it matter what form or methods were used? Same or similar abuses carried out on both K and L, relevantly? Do they now (wittingly or unwittingly) identify as victims? If so, does that make them targets of further abuse? Are they still being punished/abused?

[JenBurdoo1]

"Stranger danger" relevant? No. Some other cultural parenting thing? For sufficiently vague definitions of "cultural parenting thing." Did the parents do this out of malice? Doubtful, but possible. Were they trying to do good? Assume yes. Was the thing they did a punishment? No.

Child abuse relevant? Spousal abuse? Divorce? Death of a parent? No to all. False assumption.

Is prosopagnosia relevant? No. Was/were the parent/s in question narcissist/s or similar? No. Other kinds of abuse or cruelty? Cruelty is arguable. Does it matter what form or methods were used? Yes. Same or similar abuses carried out on both K and L, relevantly? They have similar problems, but I wouldn't call it abuse. Do they now (wittingly This. or unwittingly) identify as victims? Yes. If so, does that make them targets of further abuse? I wouldn't call it abuse. Are they still being punished/abused? Neither, but it might feel like it.

There is definitely a false assumption going on.

[Biograd1]

Was what the parents "subjected" them to a belief system (e.g. Scientology, "anti-vax-ism", veganism, etc.--I know those are not comparable but they ARE all (minority) belief systems)?

[JenBurdoo1]

Was what the parents "subjected" them to a belief system (e.g. Scientology, "anti-vax-ism", veganism, etc.--I know those are not comparable but they ARE all (minority) belief systems)? Nope. Still FA.

[Sundowner64]

Did the parents do whatever they did on purpose? or did rather something happen to the family (to the parents? to the children?) out of bad luck?
Did the parents want something good for their children, but circumstances turned it into something bad? Could what the parents did in other circumstances also have been good for the children? Did the parents have a chance to know that they damage their children?
Does Kermit have siblings? Does Lisa?
Did the parents deprive Kermit and/or Lisa from being together with other children? homeschooling relevant? Did Kermit's and/or Lisa's family live in an isolated place?

[GalFisk]

Qas ut something the parents did: once? Repeatedly? Continuously? Was it a rule they had set? Was it their response to something specific?

[Sarisberie]

Meat-eating vs Vegetarianism or Veganism? E.g. they were made to eat meat by their families, which they might've seen as a kind of abuse (of themselves but especially of the animals)? When younger, were they expected to take part in the care of and/or killing of food animals? Might they have recognised each other at the gathering because of what they had on their plates? Was their difficulty and discomfort due to seeing other people enjoy preparing or eating meat dishes? Cookery relevant? Food competition e.g. Masterchef?

[JenBurdoo1]

Did the parents do whatever they did on purpose? Yes. or did rather something happen to the family (to the parents? to the children?) out of bad luck? The children might have considered it bad luck.
Did the parents want something good for their children, but circumstances turned it into something bad? Yes. Could what the parents did in other circumstances also have been good for the children? Possibly. Did the parents have a chance to know that they damage their children? Irr, assume yes.
Does Kermit have siblings? Irr. Does Lisa? No.
Did the parents deprive Kermit and/or Lisa from being together with other children? homeschooling relevant? Did Kermit's and/or Lisa's family live in an isolated place? No to all.

Was it something the parents did: once? Assume this. Repeatedly? Continuously? Was it a rule they had set? Was it their response to something specific? No to the rest.

Meat-eating vs Vegetarianism or Veganism? E.g. they were made to eat meat by their families, which they might've seen as a kind of abuse (of themselves but especially of the animals)? When younger, were they expected to take part in the care of and/or killing of food animals? Might they have recognised each other at the gathering because of what they had on their plates? Was their difficulty and discomfort due to seeing other people enjoy preparing or eating meat dishes? Cookery relevant? Food competition e.g. Masterchef? Food is irrelevant to the solution.

[GalFisk]

Did the thing the parents did involve other people? Other kids? The child meeting someone for the first time? Did Kermit and Lisa have a relevant quality as kids? Such as shyness? When the parents did the thing, did Kermit and Lisa feel: betrayed? Abandoned? Scared? Nervous? Sad? Angry? Threatened? Depressed? Relevant how they felt?

[JenBurdoo1]

Did the thing the parents did involve other people? No. Other kids? No. The child meeting someone for the first time? Relevant. Did Kermit and Lisa have a relevant quality as kids? Such as shyness? Quite possibly this. When the parents did the thing, did Kermit and Lisa feel: Not at the time, but later: betrayed? Possibly. Abandoned? Scared? Nervous? Yes. Sad? Angry? Yes. Threatened? Depressed? . No to the others. Relevant how they felt? Yes.

[GalFisk]

Did the parents keep the children from meeting new people?

[JenBurdoo1]

Did the parents keep the children from meeting new people? Definitely not.

[trebor2]

Did the parents introduce Kermit and Lisa to too many people as children? To one relevant person (per child)? To the same person/people? Has Kermit ever been famous? Has Lisa? Were they child stars? Were they gifted academically? Athletically? Were either of them introduced to someone who could control their employment prospects? Educational prospects? Finances? Were they in positions as children whereby they brought in important income to their families?

Failing all that, are handshakes relevant? God, I hated overbearing/sweaty/limp/death-like handshakes from hands far bigger than mine when I was a child. Awful, awful, awful.

[GalFisk]

Did they force them to meet new people? Try to cure their shyness? Not care about their shyness? Have big birthday parties or other celebrations for them?

[JenBurdoo1]

Did the parents introduce Kermit and Lisa to too many people as children? Kermit and Lisa probably thought so. To one relevant person (per child)? To the same person/people? Has Kermit ever been famous? No, but... Has Lisa? No, but... Were they child stars? Were they gifted academically? Athletically? Were either of them introduced to someone who could control their employment prospects? Educational prospects? Finances? Were they in positions as children whereby they brought in important income to their families? No to all else.

Failing all that, are handshakes relevant? No.

Did they force them to meet new people? Assume yes. Try to cure their shyness? No. Not care about their shyness? Irr. Have big birthday parties or other celebrations for them? Irr.

There is still a significant false assumption here.

[GalFisk]

Is the FA about: Kermit, as an adult? Lisa, as an adult? Kermit, as a child? Lisa, as a child? Lisa's parents? Kermit's parents? Lisa's parents' actions? Kermit's parents' actions? Lisa's response to those actions? Kermit's response to those actions? Lisa and Kermit's date? Was Lisa ever relevantly famous? Kermit? Lisa's parents? Kermit's parents?

[trebor2]

Does the FA have to do with biological parents vs adoptive/foster parents? Do they each know their parents? Is this about something the a parent did before Kermit and Lisa were born?

Do K and L find out on the date that they're related?

Is one of Kermit's parents famous? More than one? Same questions for Lisa, please. Or grandparents of either? Another relative?

[Sarisberie]

Were K and L treated like they were special, or better or more important or gifted than anyone else?

[JenBurdoo1]

Is the FA about: Kermit, as an adult? Lisa, as an adult? Kermit, as a child? Lisa, as a child? Lisa's parents? Kermit's parents? Lisa's parents' actions? This. Kermit's parents' actions? And this. Lisa's response to those actions? Kermit's response to those actions? Lisa and Kermit's date? No to the rest. Was Lisa ever relevantly famous? Kermit? No to both, but explore. Lisa's parents? Kermit's parents? No to both.

Does the FA have to do with biological parents vs adoptive/foster parents? No. Do they each know their parents? Yes. Is this about something the a parent did before Kermit and Lisa were born? Possibly, irr.

Do K and L find out on the date that they're related? No.

Is one of Kermit's parents famous? More than one? Same questions for Lisa, please. Or grandparents of either? Another relative? No to all.

Were K and L treated like they were special, or better or more important or gifted than anyone else? No.

[GalFisk]

Are the names of Lisa and Kermit relevant? Was Lisa ever told she was famous? Was Kermit ever told he was famous? Did they relevantly have a bad chidhood experience when being introduced to new people, apart from what was caused by their own shyness? Relevant in what way they were introduced to new people?

[trebor2]

If not famous, was either Lisa or Kermit ever well-known? Are they now? Are they local celebrities? Did they each do something that became well-known? Were their births notable events? Did they participate in something famous?

Is the FA that the parents did something to K & L? That each Did any of the parents: create something? invent something? discover something? instigate something? start a movement? Promote hate? (Thinking Would most people consider what the parents did to be bad? Good? Neutral? You said it could be considered cruel; to K and L? To other kids? To animals? To the environment? To each other? To a certain group of people? To people in general? Is crime involved?

Do the relevant actions from the parents occur before L and K are born? Before they are conceived? When they are 0 - 5? 5-12? Relevant?

From an earlier post: "Do Kermit and Lisa have to verbally speak with each other to know they have this in common? Lisa wouldn't have to, but Kermit would." Does this mean that Kermit would have to speak to know that he had this in common with Lisa? That Kermit would have to speak for Lisa to know that she had this in common with him? Is there something distinctive about Kermit's voice?

[JenBurdoo1]

Are the names of Lisa and Kermit relevant? Yes. Was Lisa ever told she was famous? No. Was Kermit ever told he was famous? No. Did they relevantly have a bad chidhood experience when being introduced to new people, apart from what was caused by their own shyness? Yes. Relevant in what way they were introduced to new people? Mildly - assume in person.

If not famous, was either Lisa or Kermit ever well-known? No. Are they now? No. Are they local celebrities? No. Did they each do something that became well-known? No. Were their births notable events? No. Did they participate in something famous? No.

Is the FA that the parents did something to K & L? No. Did any of the parents: create something? invent something? discover something? instigate something? Inadvertently. start a movement? Promote hate? None of the others. (Thinking Would most people consider what the parents did to be bad? This, for SVV of "bad." Good? Neutral? You said it could be considered cruel; to K and L? This. To other kids? To animals? To the environment? To each other? To a certain group of people? To people in general? Is crime involved? No.

Do the relevant actions from the parents occur before L and K are born? Possibly. Before they are conceived? When they are 0 - 5? But assume this. 5-12? Relevant? Yes.

From an earlier post: "Do Kermit and Lisa have to verbally speak with each other to know they have this in common? Lisa wouldn't have to, but Kermit would." Does this mean that Kermit would have to speak to know that he had this in common with Lisa? That Kermit would have to speak for Lisa to know that she had this in common with him? They would have to tell each other something, and Lisa would have to provide more information. Is there something distinctive about Kermit's voice? No, but...

[GalFisk]

Is Lisa Simpson relevant? Kermit the frog? Other famous characters? Any famous people?

[JenBurdoo1]

Is Lisa Simpson relevant? Kermit the frog? Yes to both. Other famous characters? Bart, mildly. Any famous people? No.

[Sarisberie]

Is it that they are both fictional? That they are voiced by someone other than themselves? Lisa and Bart have yellow skin, and kermit has green? That both Lisa and Kermit are, or feel they are, misunderstood? Lacking confidence?

[Sundowner64]

Was the inconsiderate thing Kermit's and Lisa's parents did the choice of name?
Was Kermit born before Kermit the frog became popular? so, he just had bad luck? was he, in fact, named after some other famous Kermit? (Kermit Roosevelt, maybe?)
Is their name the reason why Kermit and Lisa felt uncomfortable when meeting new people? the moment when they have to introduce themselves? are they afraid others may make jokes about their names? but when Kermit and Lisa met they would not laugh about the other one's name because both have the same problem?

[trebor2]

Does Kermit regularly get asked to "do Kermit"? And Lisa get asked to "do Lisa"? Or to spout catchphrases? Do they get asked about Miss Piggy/Bart?

Were they named specifically after Kermit the Frog and Lisa Simpson? Or maybe the characters were named after them?

[Biograd1]

Is Lisa's last name actually Simpson? Does she have a brother, or someone else in her family, named Bart? I'd imagine that the name Lisa itself, being common, wouldn't make people think of Lisa Simpson like the name Kermit makes everyone think of the frog.

[JenBurdoo1]

Is it that they are both fictional? That they are voiced by someone other than themselves? Lisa and Bart have yellow skin, and kermit has green? That both Lisa and Kermit are, or feel they are, misunderstood? Lacking confidence? No to all.

Was the inconsiderate thing Kermit's and Lisa's parents did the choice of name? Yes.
Was Kermit born before Kermit the frog became popular? Irr. so, he just had bad luck? was he, in fact, named after some other famous Kermit? (Kermit Roosevelt, maybe?) Irr.
Is their name the reason why Kermit and Lisa felt uncomfortable when meeting new people? the moment when they have to introduce themselves? This. are they afraid others may make jokes about their names? Yes. but when Kermit and Lisa met they would not laugh about the other one's name because both have the same problem? Yes.

Does Kermit regularly get asked to "do Kermit"? And Lisa get asked to "do Lisa"? Or to spout catchphrases? Do they get asked about Miss Piggy/Bart? Yes to all.

Were they named specifically after Kermit the Frog and Lisa Simpson? Irr. Or maybe the characters were named after them? No.

Is Lisa's last name actually Simpson? Yes. Does she have a brother, or someone else in her family, named Bart? No. I'd imagine that the name Lisa itself, being common, wouldn't make people think of Lisa Simpson like the name Kermit makes everyone think of the frog. No, but everytime she introduces herself fully...



SPOILER:



Sketch from the BBC radio series John Finnemore's Souvenir Programme:

Lisa: “Hi I’m Lisa.”
Kermit: “Hi.”
Lisa: “What’s your name?”
Kermit: “People call me K.”
Lisa: “Kay? Isn’t that a girl’s name?”
Kermit: “Not, not Kay... K. Just the letter K.”
Lisa: “Oh right! What’s it short for?”
Kermit: “My name.”
Lisa: “Yeah obviously, I mean, what is it? Oh is it Kevin? Or eh Karl?”
Kermit: “No it’s eh... worse than that.”
Lisa: “Keith? Kenneth?”
Kermit: “It’s Kermit.”
Lisa: “Oh. Right. Kermit. Is...”
Kermit: “Yes and no and yes and no and yes and no.”
Lisa: “Sorry?”
Kermit: “Yes like the frog, no not after the frog, yes it’s a real name, no my parents didn’t hate me, yes I did get teased at school, no it’s not easy being green!”
Lisa: “Well there’s no need to be like that.”
Kermit: “What you weren’t going to ask any of those things?”
Lisa: “No, I wasn’t.”
Kermit: “Yes you were! Everyone does.”
Lisa: “Not me, Kermit, I’m different. I know how you feel.”
Kermit: “Ha I’m sure you do! With a name like Lisa? I’m sure you feel my pain!”
Lisa: “Lisa... Simpson.”
Kermit: “Oh my god.”
Lisa: “Yes like Lisa Simpson, no not after Lisa Simpson, yes at least it’s memorable, no I don’t have a brother, yes I did get teased at school, no I can’t do the voice!”
Kermit: “My god! I’ve never met anyone who understood! I... I know this is sudden but... will you marry me?!”
Lisa: “Maybe... what’s your surname?”
Kermit: “Minnelli.”
Lisa: “Absolutely not!”

[Sarisberie]

Lovely <3