lat-puzz.com

by **irishelk** » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:02 pm

The murder was so shocking, the police incorrectly thought the killer was also an arsonist.

True story, possible quickie, no gory details required.

by **Earnest** » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:25 am

to be sure: I am assuming that there is a murderer (HAM?) and a victim (HAM?HAF?...), right? And that the victim truly died due to the murderer's actions. I am also assuming that the police does not know the killer's identity. Am I correct?

The murder was so shocking --> did it happen for: electroshock? accident? burn? drowning? poisoning? explosion? gun shot? through a weapon (knife? sword? ax?)? mechanical manipulation? jumping from an height? war crimes?

the police incorrectly thought the killer was also an arsonist. --> were there evidences of a burn? Was the victim burned? was the body of the victim recognizable? Did police think that he/she was arsonist because of something they thought he/she did before the murder? During? After? Did he/she do it in reality? Did he/she do it to mask the murder? To cancel evidences? By accident?

the police incorrectly thought the killer was also an arsonist. --> does this influence the investigations? Did they look for the killer somewhere relevantly? did the police deduce it from the murder? Is the killer a serial killer? Did he kill a person? More people? If so, all in once? In different time slots? Did the murders have something in common? Something that led the police think about an arsonist as killer?

Are any of thee relevant: matches? fire extinguisher? cigarette? lighter? explosion? flames? fireplace? firemen? fireworks? flammable substances? chemistry? cookers/stove? oil? Halloween? wood?

by **irishelk** » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:22 pm

Earnest

to be sure: I am assuming that there is a murderer (HAM?) HAUnknown =) and a victim (HAM?HAF?...), right? Several victims.And that the victim truly died due to the murderer's actions. Yes. I am also assuming that the police does not know the killer's identity. Am I correct? Yes.

The murder was so shocking --> did it happen for: electroshock? accident? burn? drowning? poisoning? explosion? gun shot? through a weapon (knife? sword? ax?This. )? mechanical manipulation? jumping from an height? war crimes?

the police incorrectly thought the killer was also an arsonist. --> were there evidences of a burn? Yes. Was the victim burned? No. was the body of the victim recognizable? Yes. Did police think that he/she was arsonist because of something they thought he/she did before the murder? During? After? Yes. Did he/she do it in reality? No. Did he/she do it to mask the murder? To cancel evidences? By accident?

the police incorrectly thought the killer was also an arsonist. --> does this influence the investigations? Irr. Did they look for the killer somewhere relevantly? No. did the police deduce it from the murder? Not directly. Is the killer a serial killer? Likely, yes, but irr. Did he kill a person? More people? Three in this case. If so, all in once? Yes. In different time slots? Did the murders have something in common? They were int he same time and place. Something that led the police think about an arsonist as killer?

Are any of thee relevant: matches? fire extinguisher? cigarette? lighter? explosion? Yope, DOYD. flames? Yes. fireplace? firemen? fireworks? flammable substances? Yes. chemistry? In a vague sense. cookers/stove? oil? Halloween? wood? No to rest.

by **Balin** » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:12 pm

Ax: Lizzie Borden case?

by **irishelk** » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:19 pm

Balin

Ax: Lizzie Borden case? Nope.

by **Balin** » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:26 pm

Did the killer intentionally burn the victim?
Would the victim have been burnt even if not murdered? Was the victim burnt before the murder?
Did the victim start a fire of some sort? Cooking involved?

by **irishelk** » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:28 pm

Balin

Did the killer intentionally burn the victim? No.
Would the victim have been burnt even if not murdered? Was the victim burnt before the murder? No, FA.
Did the victim start a fire of some sort? No. Cooking involved? No.

by **Balin** » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:43 pm

Was the victim burnt at all?

You said there was evidence of a burn - at the murder scene? On the victim's body?

by **irishelk** » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:55 pm

Balin

Was the victim burnt at all? No.

You said there was evidence of a burn - at the murder scene? Yes. On the victim's body? No.

by **Earnest** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:18 am

was something made to the victims by the murderer after having killed them? If so, to hide the traces/evidences? Did the murderer beheaded the victims? Broke their bodies up?
Were all three victims killed with the ax? Were they killed all at the same time? Was the ax grasped by the killer (or maybe it was part of a trap/engine)? Can the murder be called: a sacrifice? an offer? a revenge? a war act? a sentence? a jealousy act? a rob? an accident? others?

Interaction fire-gases/wisps relevant? Did someone leave the gas on?
Was a fire going on when the murder took place? Was it summer? was there a fire in the nearby?

Did the murder happen: in a private place(house?)? in a public place?

by **trebor** » Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:42 pm

Are the several victims all human? Are any of them human?

Did the murderer actually intend to kill anyone?

Was the ax used to chop firewood? To chop a tree down? We’re the victims in the tree? Under it?

by **irishelk** » Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:40 pm

Earnest

was something made to the victims by the murderer after having killed them? If so, to hide the traces/evidences? Not relevantly.
Did the murderer beheaded the victims? Broke their bodies up? Irr.
Were all three victims killed with the ax? Were they killed all at the same time? Was the ax grasped by the killer (or maybe it was part of a trap/engine)? Yes to all, in fact, but completely irr.
Can the murder be called: a sacrifice? an offer? a revenge? a war act? a sentence? a jealousy act? a rob? an accident? others? Irr, as far as we know it was without a real motive.

Interaction fire-gases/wisps relevant? No. Did someone leave the gas on? No, good thought.
Was a fire going on when the murder took place? No. Was it summer? Irr. was there a fire in the nearby? No.

Did the murder happen: in a private place(house?)? Yes, the victims' home. in a public place?

trebor

Are the several victims all human? Yes. Are any of them human?

Did the murderer actually intend to kill anyone? Yes.

Was the ax used to chop firewood? To chop a tree down? We’re the victims in the tree? Under it? No to all.

by **Balin** » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:23 am

Was the house itself burnt? Was the evidence of the burn on or in the house?

by **trebor** » Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:15 pm

Furnaces relevant? Did the ax cut anything other than (I’m assuming) people?

by **wunderland** » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:09 pm

Did somebody other than the murderer start a fire? intentionally?

by **irishelk** » Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:45 pm

Balin

Was the house itself burnt? No. Was the evidence of the burn on or in the house? Inside the house.

trebor

Furnaces relevant? No. Did the ax cut anything other than (I’m assuming) people? Not relevantly.

wunderland

Did somebody other than the murderer start a fire? Yes. intentionally? No, good q.

by **trebor** » Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:58 pm

Did the fire start before the murders? After? During? Was it started by one of the victims? By another human? By an animal? Was it in a fireplace? On a candle? In the kitchen?

by **irishelk** » Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:16 pm

trebor

Did the fire start before the murders? After? This. During?
Was it started by one of the victims? No. By another human? Yes. By an animal? Was it in a fireplace? On a candle? In the kitchen? No to rest.

by **wunderland** » Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:57 pm

Was the fire started by another resident of the building? a guest / visitor? an employee of the victims? a neighbour? a burglar or other intruder? the person who discovered the bodies? an associate of the murderer? the police? more than one person?
Was the fire started inside the house? in the same room where the murders took place? in the same room where the bodies were discovered?
Was the person who started the fire inside the house when they started the fire? were they in the house when the murders happened? did they know about the murders?
Did the fire start because of an electrical spark?

by **irishelk** » Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:46 am

wunderland

Was the fire started by another resident of the building? a guest / visitor? an employee of the victims? a neighbour? a burglar or other intruder? the person who discovered the bodies? an associate of the murderer? the police? more than one person? No to all, but "other intruder" is probably closest.
Was the fire started inside the house? Yes. in the same room where the murders took place? Yes, or very close. in the same room where the bodies were discovered? Yes, or very close.
Was the person who started the fire inside the house when they started the fire? Yes. were they in the house when the murders happened? No. did they know about the murders? Yes.
Did the fire start because of an electrical spark? No.

by **trebor** » Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:15 am

Was the fire-starter a first responder? Someone else trying to save the victims? Is the profession of anyone relevant here? If so, the fire-starter’s? The murderer’s? Someone dead’s?

Do we need to discover anything else about the dead people? Do they have a relevant relationship to the murderer? To the fire-starter? Are the victims all related to each other? Parent(s) and child(ren)?

Is it relevant what was set aflame? If so, paper? Clothing? Matches? Upholstery? Can we rule out things like curtains, carpet, etc., that might not be part of the house but would probably cause the house to go up, given that the house wasn’t on fire? Or was it something like that, but the fire was put out quickly?

Was the fire put out quickly?

by **biograd** » Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:05 am

Is the word "shocking" in the puzzle statement a pun? was the fire started when someone touched something with electricity running through it?

by **GalFisk** » Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:05 pm

Was the fire-starter shocked by the murders? Did the fire go in the way the fire-starter intended it to go? If not, was it: smaller? Bigger? Did it fail to thrive? was it extinguished? If so, on purpose? By a human? Was the fire-starter HAM? A criminal? Another unknown person?

by **irishelk** » Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:45 pm

trebor

Was the fire-starter a first responder? Someone else trying to save the victims? No. Is the profession of anyone relevant here? Yes. If so, the fire-starter’s? Yes. The murderer’s? No. Someone dead’s? No.

Do we need to discover anything else about the dead people? No. Do they have a relevant relationship to the murderer? To the fire-starter? Are the victims all related to each other? Parent(s) and child(ren)? A mother and kids, if I remember correctly, but irr.

Is it relevant what was set aflame? Not especially, but-- If so, paper? This. Clothing? Matches? Upholstery? Can we rule out things like curtains, carpet, etc., that might not be part of the house but would probably cause the house to go up, given that the house wasn’t on fire? Or was it something like that, but the fire was put out quickly? Unclear how much damage it would have caused if unchecked, possibly a lot.

Was the fire put out quickly? Yes.

biograd

Is the word "shocking" in the puzzle statement a pun? No, I was searching for a pun and it just wouldn't appear. was the fire started when someone touched something with electricity running through it? No.

GalFisk

Was the fire-starter shocked by the murders? Yes, or at least recognized them as shocking. Did the fire go in the way the fire-starter intended it to go? No. If not, was it: smaller? Bigger? FA. Did it fail to thrive? was it extinguished? Yes. If so, on purpose? Yes. By a human? Yes. Was the fire-starter HAM? Yes. A criminal? No. Another unknown person? Someone not yet discovered, yes.

by **Balin** » Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:41 pm

Was the fire started before the fire-starter learned about the murders? After? At the same time?
Was a physical fire actually started?

by **irishelk** » Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:43 pm

Balin

Was the fire started before the fire-starter learned about the murders? After? At the same time? Shortly after.
Was a physical fire actually started? Yes.

by **wunderland** » Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:54 pm

Did the fire-starter notice the fire? report it? put it out himself?
Does he have a professional connection to the victims? the house?
Was he a debt collector?

by **irishelk** » Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:27 pm

wunderland

Did the fire-starter notice the fire? Yes. report it? No. put it out himself? Yes.
Does he have a professional connection to the victims? I'll say yes--his connection is through his job, certainly. the house? Same connection.
Was he a debt collector? No.

by **irishelk** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:24 pm

Hints:

1. The time period is relevant.

2. The puzzle statement is literally true: the belief that there had been arson occurred specifically because the murder was a shocking one.

by **klondike mary** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:35 am

Time period: 21st century? 20th? 19th? etc., etc.?
Any of the persons involved famous or well-known?
Could the ax be a stone ax, if this hasn't been axed - I mean asked?

by **GalFisk** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:11 am

Did the fire-starter intend for there to be any fire at all? Did the fire start because the fire-starter was shocked? Did the fire-starter drop a match or cigarette out of shock?

by **irishelk** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:50 pm

klondike mary

Time period: 21st century? 20th? Early 20th. 19th? etc., etc.?
Any of the persons involved famous or well-known? Not really.
Could the ax be a stone ax, if this hasn't been axed - I mean asked? Ha! Irr.

GalFisk

Did the fire-starter intend for there to be any fire at all? No.
Did the fire start because the fire-starter was shocked? Not exactly. Did the fire-starter drop a match or cigarette out of shock? No.

by **klondike mary** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:34 pm

Is location relevant, e.g. type of location: urban, rural, coastal, etc?
Is the country relevant? If so, may I invoke the LTPF list of countries?

by **trebor** » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:43 am

War relevant? If so, WWl? WWll? Was the fire starter a soldier? Other military person? A medical worker? A priest?

by **irishelk** » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:18 pm

klondike mary

Is location relevant, e.g. type of location: urban, rural, coastal, etc? Not really, suburban.
Is the country relevant? If so, may I invoke the LTPF list of countries? No, it was in the US but could have been elsewhere.

trebor

War relevant? No.
If so, WWl? WWll? Was the fire starter a soldier? Other military person? A medical worker? A priest? No to all, but job is very relevant.

by **GalFisk** » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:08 pm

Does the fire starter work with: fire? Tools? Machines? People? Criminals? Crimes? Is the fire starter a criminal (apart from starting the fire, if that ws infact criminal)? Was the fire started out of negligence? Forgetfulness? Malice? Panic? Good intentions?

by **klondike mary** » Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:25 am

WAG: San Francisco earthquake/fire relevant?Is time-frame relevant because this would be less likely to happen now? or more likely? in your opinion.

by **irishelk** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:45 pm

GalFisk

Does the fire starter work with: fire? Tools? Machines? This, one specific tool/machine. People? Criminals? Crimes? and this.
Is the fire starter a criminal (apart from starting the fire, if that ws infact criminal)? No. Was the fire started out of negligence? This. Forgetfulness? Malice? Panic? Good intentions? No to rest.

klondike mary

WAG: San Francisco earthquake/fire relevant? No. Is time-frame relevant because this would be less likely to happen now? Yes. or more likely? in your opinion. This specific situation would never occur today.

by **GalFisk** » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:51 pm

One specific tool/machine: a forensic tool? Did the fire start because of the amount of violence/destruction? Is the fire starter an investigator? Is the tool/machine powered by electricity? Combustion? Was a flammable liquid spilled?

by **trebor** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:37 am

The firestarter [twisted firestart], does his profession still exist today? If it does, does it exist but with a relevant change?

Would this situation not happen today because of: changes in technology? Changes in customs/traditions/common behaviours? Changes in societal roles and expectations? Changes in living situations? Changes in the way houses are built? Changes in how homes are heated? Changes in someone else's job, other than the firestarter? Changes in building materials?

Is the time of year relevant?

Does the firestarter have a profession that would regularly have him visiting this family at home? Is he a doctor? A vet? Mailman? Milkman? Other type of delivery person? Oh hell, I think we've established that the firestarter was a HAM, and midwifery is a "female" profession, but...midwives relevant?

by **irishelk** » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:20 pm

GalFisk

One specific tool/machine: a forensic tool? No. Did the fire start because of the amount of violence/destruction? Very indirectly. Is the fire starter an investigator? No. Is the tool/machine powered by electricity? No. Combustion? This is involved in it. Was a flammable liquid spilled? No.

trebor
The firestarter [twisted firestart], does his profession still exist today? Yes. If it does, does it exist but with a relevant change? Yes.

Would this situation not happen today because of: changes in technology? This. Changes in customs/traditions/common behaviours? This would also make the situation unlikely. Changes in societal roles and expectations? Changes in living situations? Changes in the way houses are built? Changes in how homes are heated? Changes in someone else's job, other than the firestarter? Changes in building materials?

Is the time of year relevant? No.

Does the firestarter have a profession that would regularly have him visiting this family at home? No. Is he a doctor? A vet? Mailman? Milkman? Other type of delivery person? Oh hell, I think we've established that the firestarter was a HAM, and midwifery is a "female" profession, but...midwives relevant? No to all, but I want to see a miniseries on The Arsonist Doula.

by **klondike mary** » Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:47 am

I guess this happened in a house, right? If so, is the particular area relevant, e.g. kitchen, bedroom, etc? Candles relevant? Or was it another type of building, public or private?

by **GalFisk** » Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:42 pm

Was the fire started by a lamp? Candle? Torch? did the firestarter slip and fall in the blood and gore? Did he drop something that set fire to things?

by **irishelk** » Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:23 pm

klondike mary

I guess this happened in a house, right? Correct. If so, is the particular area relevant, e.g. kitchen, bedroom, etc? Living room/bedroom is most likely. Candles relevant? No. Or was it another type of building, public or private?

GalFisk

Was the fire started by a lamp? Candle? Torch? No to all. did the firestarter slip and fall in the blood and gore? No. Did he drop something that set fire to things? Yesish, not "drop" exactly.

by **GalFisk** » Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:53 am

Not drop exactly: throw? Flick? Fling? Put down? Lose? Dislodge? Short circuit? Damage? Was he carrying the thing? Did he fall? Trip? Was the thing on fire before it started the fire? Was it glowing? Was it electrical? Was the thing in the house before he came in? Was it part of the house? Like a fireplace?

by **klondike mary** » Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:55 am

Is fabric involved, e.g. upholstery, curtains, or maybe rugs?

by **irishelk** » Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:49 pm

GalFisk

Not drop exactly: throw? Flick? Fling? This is probably closest. Its actually hard to find a single verb to describe how one interacts with this thing. Put down? Lose? Dislodge? Short circuit? Damage?
Was he carrying the thing? Yes, holding at least. Did he fall? Trip? No. Was the thing on fire before it started the fire? Yes. Was it glowing? Yesish. Was it electrical? No. Was the thing in the house before he came in? Was it part of the house? Like a fireplace? No to rest.

klondike mary

Is fabric involved, e.g. upholstery, curtains, or maybe rugs? Yes, curtains are what caught fire.

by **GalFisk** » Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:50 pm

Was the thing used for illumination? Heat? Smoking? Smell? Was it incense? Tobacco?

by **trebor** » Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:50 pm

Oh, I thought, based on my questions Olin early November, that none of the curtains/upholstery went up at all. I see my error...

Was the man a photographer? And the paper photographic paper?

by **irishelk** » Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:38 pm

GalFisk

Was the thing used for illumination? This. Heat? Smoking? Smell? Was it incense? Tobacco?

trebor

Was the man a photographer? Yep! And the paper photographic paper? Close enough!

***********************SPOILER

This incident took place with one of the grisly Midwest ax murders of the early 20th century. A family had been brutally chopped up in a small town, and the crime was so sensational in this usually sleepy town that the police were unable to keep journalists and other looky-loos out of the house where the murders took place.

To quote Troy Taylor's book on the case: "In the front room, a crumpled piece of the Sunday newspaper was found partially burned, as was the lower part of one of the window curtains. Investigators at first believed that the killer had attempted to burn down the cottage and erase all evidence of the crime, but they were mistaken. It was later discovered that a photographer had used too much flash powder when photographing the scene and a spark had set the curtain on fire."