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by **Sundowner64** » Tue Aug 08, 2023 7:58 am

When Emil said goodbye to the Church, he was celebrated in the local pub by both Catholics and Protestants.

by **doriana_** » Tue Aug 08, 2023 8:45 am

Is Emil H/A/M? Is he Catholic? Protestant?
Relevant where this happens?
Saying goodbye to the Church = officially leaving the Church as an organization? Or does he say goodbye in a literal sense, e.g. to a Church building that will be demolished?

by **Sundowner64** » Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:23 am

Doriana
Is Emil H/A/M? Yes Is he Catholic? Protestant? This
Relevant where this happens? Yes
Saying goodbye to the Church = officially leaving the Church as an organization? This Or does he say goodbye in a literal sense, e.g. to a Church building that will be demolished?

by **BalinTheDwarf** » Tue Aug 08, 2023 11:52 am

Is Emil alive?
Protestant - did he say goodbye to the Protestant Church? To another church and then became a Protestant?

by **Sundowner64** » Tue Aug 08, 2023 1:32 pm

Balin
Is Emil alive? Yes
Protestant - did he say goodbye to the Protestant Church? This (and did not convert to any other church or religion) To another church and then became a Protestant?

by **doriana_** » Tue Aug 08, 2023 1:49 pm

Does this happen in Germany? If not, in another European country?

Does Emil work at the pub? If so, do the customers benefit from him leaving the Church? Does he lower the prices because he doesn't have to pay Church taxes anymore?

by **Sundowner64** » Tue Aug 08, 2023 1:56 pm

Doriana
Does this happen in Germany? Yes If not, in another European country?
Does Emil work at the pub? No If so, do the customers benefit from him leaving the Church? Does he lower the prices because he doesn't have to pay Church taxes anymore? No, he is not related to the pub (apart from being a regular patron).

by **doriana_** » Wed Aug 09, 2023 8:19 am

Does this happen in the 21st century? 20th? 19th? earlier than that?
Relevant that he is celebrated at a pub specifically? Or would a different establishment where he is a regular patron/customer also work?
Is Emil's job relevant?
Relevant why he left the Church? If so, because he doesn't agree with the doctrine? because he doesn't want to pay Church tax any longer? because leaving the Church would allow him to do something that he previously wasn't allowed to do?
Do the people at the pub celebrate him because they're happy for him? because they benefit in any way from him leaving the Church?

by **Sundowner64** » Wed Aug 09, 2023 8:48 am

Doriana
Does this happen in the 21st century? This 20th? 19th? earlier than that?
Relevant that he is celebrated at a pub specifically? Not really Or would a different establishment where he is a regular patron/customer also work? Yes, could work as well
Is Emil's job relevant? No
Relevant why he left the Church? No If so, because he doesn't agree with the doctrine? because he doesn't want to pay Church tax any longer? because leaving the Church would allow him to do something that he previously wasn't allowed to do? No
Do the people at the pub celebrate him because they're happy for him? because they benefit in any way from him leaving the Church? This

by **doriana_** » Thu Aug 10, 2023 11:42 am

Looking at the title - is the Assumption of Mary relevant at all?

Do the people in the pub benefit financially from Emil's leaving the Church? Was there a bet or dare going on?

When Emil was a member of the Church, did he relevantly go to church? regularly? only on holidays?

by **Sundowner64** » Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:15 pm

Doriana
Looking at the title - is the Assumption of Mary relevant at all? Yes
Do the people in the pub benefit financially from Emil's leaving the Church? Indirectly, yes (potentially misleading, but true answer) Was there a bet or dare going on? No
When Emil was a member of the Church, did he relevantly go to church? regularly? only on holidays Irrelevant

by **doriana_** » Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:51 pm

PM'ing a possible $poyler

by **Sundowner64** » Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:06 pm

Correct.

by **trebor2** » Wed Aug 23, 2023 6:09 am

Does this have to do with Assumption Day? Is feasting relevant?

Is the relationship Emil had with his fellow church-goers prior to leaving the church relevant? Did he get along with them?

Regarding the location being relevant, do you mean the fact that this happened in Germany? Something more specific? Is the location of the pub within Germany relevant? Is it in a large city? A small town? Relevant? Same questions for the church, please.

Does it matter that the people at the pub were Protestant or Catholic? Could they have been atheist and still been celebrating him? Were there in fact people there who were non-religious or other religions?

by **Sundowner64** » Wed Aug 23, 2023 7:57 am

trebor
Does this have to do with Assumption Day? Yes Is feasting relevant? Not in the religious sense, but otherwise possibly.

Is the relationship Emil had with his fellow church-goers prior to leaving the church relevant? No. Did he get along with them? Irrelevant.

Regarding the location being relevant, do you mean the fact that this happened in Germany? Something more specific? A specific part of Germany. Is the location of the pub within Germany relevant? Yes. Is it in a large city? A small town? This, or even a village. Relevant? Yes. Same questions for the church, please. Same answers.

Does it matter that the people at the pub were Protestant or Catholic? It just matters that they would celebrate him irrespective of their religion. Could they have been atheist and still been celebrating him? Yes. Were there in fact people there who were non-religious or other religions? Most likely, yes.

by **Biograd1** » Thu Aug 24, 2023 7:53 pm

Does being free of some religious restriction mean that he will be able to patronize the pub more often (as in, more days of the year)? that he will be able to order more food? or drink? on days when he already was going there?

by **Sundowner64** » Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:18 pm

Biograd
Does being free of some religious restriction mean that he will be able to patronize the pub more often (as in, more days of the year)? No. that he will be able to order more food? or drink? on days when he already was going there? No.

by **Biograd1** » Fri Aug 25, 2023 11:30 pm

Are the people who benefit indirectly financially other patrons at the bar? If so, do they benefit simply by virtue of being patrons at that bar, or is there another characteristic they have in common that allows them to benefit? Does he buy them drinks? Do they benefit by being able to use him as a social connection somehow?

by **Sundowner64** » Tue Aug 29, 2023 8:45 am

Biograd
Are the people who benefit indirectly financially other patrons at the bar? No, not necessarily. If so, do they benefit simply by virtue of being patrons at that bar, or is there another characteristic they have in common that allows them to benefit? Another characteristic is relevant. Does he buy them drinks? No. Do they benefit by being able to use him as a social connection somehow? No.

by **Biograd1** » Fri Sep 22, 2023 11:51 pm

Did Emil own a business in the village that the others (the ones who were celebrating) were customers of? Or conversely, did THEY own businesses that EMIL was a customer of?

by **Sundowner64** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:33 am

Biograd
Did Emil own a business in the village that the others (the ones who were celebrating) were customers of? Or conversely, did THEY own businesses that EMIL was a customer of? Both irrelevant. This is not the reason why they celebrated him.

by **trebor2** » Thu Oct 05, 2023 6:53 pm

Was Emil in the pub when he was celebrated?

Is the characteristic that the people have in common related to: gender? ethnicity? religion? physical attributes? mental health? physical health? profession? hobby? relationship status? age? something that affects them because of where they live? friendship?

Is this in the north of Germany? South? West? East? Central? Is it in a coastal location? Mountainous? Forested? Is the geography/terrain of the area relevant? Is the history of the town relevant? Its culture? Is something else the town is known for relevant?

Was Emil celebrated derisively? Like how when Margaret Thatcher died, she was celebrated because was finally dead? (Not saying he died, but maybe celebrated because something bad happened to him that was good for others?)

by **Sundowner64** » Fri Oct 06, 2023 2:05 pm

trebor
Was Emil in the pub when he was celebrated? Yes.

Is the characteristic that the people have in common related to: gender? ethnicity? religion? physical attributes? mental health? physical health? profession? hobby? relationship status? age? something that affects them because of where they live? This one, no to the rest. friendship?

Is this in the north of Germany? South? West? East? Central? Bavaria, so Southeast. Is it in a coastal location? Mountainous? Forested? Irrelevant. A small village somewhere in Bavaria. Is the geography/terrain of the area relevant? Is the history of the town relevant? Its culture? Is something else the town is known for relevant? No to all.

Was Emil celebrated derisively? No. Like how when Margaret Thatcher died, she was celebrated because was finally dead? (Not saying he died, but maybe celebrated because something bad happened to him that was good for others?)

by **Sundowner64** » Mon Oct 09, 2023 9:18 am

As it has been a while, here a

RECAP

Emil is telling his friends in the pub that he left the Protestant Church. They celebrate him for that.
The religion of his friends is irrelevant, they might be Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus or whatever or (most likely) not belonging to any religion. The reason why they celebrate him has nothing to do with religious beliefs. Also, it's completely irrelevant for what reason he left the church.
It's implied that his friends in some way benefit from Emil leaving the Protestant Church.
The story takes place in a small village in Bavaria, which is relevant.
Also the feast of St Mary's Assumption is somehow relevant.

by **GalFisk** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:09 am

Is the benefit one-time? Ongoing? If ongoing, for: days? Weeks? Months? Years? Decades? The rest of Emil's life? Does it benefit anyone who's not his friend? Who's not at the pub? Does Emil benefit financially from leaving? In some other way? Is he treating his friends to a round of drinks? In some other way using his own money to save them money? Did he know there would be a celebration? Did he arrange it? Did he suspect there would be one? Would anyone else be celebrated this way for the same actions? Have they? Is this based on a true story?

by **Sundowner64** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:23 pm

GalFisk
Is the benefit one-time? Ongoing? This. If ongoing, for: days? Weeks? Months? Years? Certainly this. Decades? And possibly even this. The rest of Emil's life? Possibly. Does it benefit anyone who's not his friend? Possibly. (Being a friend of Emil's is not the relevant quality for benefitting.) Who's not at the pub? Very likely. Does Emil benefit financially from leaving? Only indirectly. In some other way? In the same way as anyone else who is benefitting. Is he treating his friends to a round of drinks? Irrelevant. In some other way using his own money to save them money? No. Did he know there would be a celebration? Did he arrange it? Did he suspect there would be one? All irrelevant. Would anyone else be celebrated this way for the same actions? Giving the same circumstances, yes. Have they? There is something to explore. People who did the same move before Emil might have been celebrated or not. Then, also Emil might have been celebrated or not. People who did the same after Emil most likely would not be celebrated this way. Is this based on a true story? No, but could be.

by **GalFisk** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:03 am

Could it be said that Emil is the last person likely to be celebrated in this way? Taxes relevant? Would there be any additional benefit if someone else left as well? Would there be the same benefit if someone else left instead of Emil? Would there be a benefit if someone took Emil's place at the church? Limited places at the church relevant?

by **Sundowner64** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:44 am

GalFisk
Could it be said that Emil is the last person likely to be celebrated in this way? For the moment, yes. Although, in the future a similar situation could come up again. Taxes relevant? No. Would there be any additional benefit if someone else left as well? No, good question. Would there be the same benefit if someone else left instead of Emil? Yes. Would there be a benefit if someone took Emil's place at the church? No. (again a good question) Limited places at the church relevant? But, no.

by **GalFisk** » Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:05 pm

Did he leave the church primarily because it would lead to this benefit? Is one specific physical church relevant? A parish? Would the benefit end if he rejoined the church? Were there relevant formalities to leaving? Such as signing a document? Being removed from a list? Paying? Stopping a payment? Could he join some other church without affecting the result of leaving?

by **Sundowner64** » Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:10 am

GalFisk
Did he leave the church primarily because it would lead to this benefit? No, the exact reason why he left is irrelevant. Is one specific physical church relevant? No. The Protestant Church as an organization. A parish? Which includes this. Would the benefit end if he rejoined the church? Yes. Were there relevant formalities to leaving? There were, but irrelevant for the puzzle. Such as signing a document? Being removed from a list? Paying? Stopping a payment? Could he join some other church without affecting the result of leaving? Yes, good question!

by **GalFisk** » Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:19 pm

Is the advantage geographically limited? If so, to the town where he lives? Could someone else take his place in the organization without nullifying the advantage? Did someone?

by **Sundowner64** » Tue Oct 17, 2023 7:20 am

GalFisk
Is the advantage geographically limited? Yes. If so, to the town where he lives? Yes. Could someone else take his place in the organization without nullifying the advantage? No. Did someone? No.

by **Biograd1** » Tue Oct 17, 2023 6:53 pm

Could someone else take his place in the organization without nullifying the advantage? No.

So, did he have a unique role within the church, held by nobody else in town (such as a priest), rather than simply being one of many people attending church services? Did the church itself cease to exist as an organization once he left?

by **Sundowner64** » Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:21 pm

Biograd
So, did he have a unique role within the church, No. held by nobody else in town (such as a priest), rather than simply being one of many people attending church services? Just an ordinary church member, and it's not even relevant whether he attended the services. Did the church itself cease to exist as an organization once he left? No. (but this would give a much better spoy_ler than the one I'd thought of)

by **GalFisk** » Thu Oct 19, 2023 2:48 pm

Was there an advantage to the church having fewer than a certain number of members? Was him leaving an advantage for the church?

by **Sundowner64** » Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:14 am

GalFisk
Was there an advantage to the church having fewer than a certain number of members? Not to the church, but to a group of people. Was him leaving an advantage for the church? No.

by **Biograd1** » Tue Oct 24, 2023 5:58 pm

Does it matter how many people eat at the feast of the Assumption? how many people prepare food for it?

by **trebor2** » Sat Oct 28, 2023 8:59 pm

Does this have to do with parishioner numbers being tied to town/city status? Is the church he left actually part of a parish that is geographically outside of the town, so by leaving the church he formally becomes a member of the town itself? And that makes him a milestone number for the town?

by **Sundowner64** » Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:14 am

Biograd1
Does it matter how many people eat at the feast of the Assumption? No. how many people prepare food for it? No.

trebor2
Does this have to do with parishioner numbers being tied to town/city status? No. Is the church he left actually part of a parish that is geographically outside of the town, so by leaving the church he formally becomes a member of the town itself? No. (but it matters very much that the parish is inside the town) And that makes him a milestone number for the town? Not quite, but this is the right direction of inquiry.

by **trebor2** » Thu Nov 02, 2023 8:43 pm

Are parish boundaries relevant? Is the parish like an enclave within the town? Are the town's laws/regulations/etc. enforceable on parish grounds?

Is a census relevant? Is there an advantage to the townspeople if the church has fewer numbers? Voting relevant? Tax exemptions? Funding?

Does him leaving the church push the church below some required number?

by **Sundowner64** » Fri Nov 03, 2023 9:13 am

trebor2
Are parish boundaries relevant? No. Actually, not at all. Relevant is where the parishoners live. Is the parish like an enclave within the town? No. Are the town's laws/regulations/etc. enforceable on parish grounds? Yes, but irrelevant.
Is a census relevant? Yes. Is there an advantage to the townspeople if the church has fewer numbers? In this particular setting, yes. Or, maybe, yope. You may wish to specify "the church". Voting relevant? Tax exemptions? Funding? No to these.
Does him leaving the church push the church below some required number? Hard to answer, please rephrase.

by **GalFisk** » Sat Nov 04, 2023 8:06 am

Is the number of church members in an area relevant? Or the ratio? Could he rejoin the church after the census?

by **Sundowner64** » Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:28 am

GalFisk
Is the number of church members in an area relevant? Yes. Or the ratio? And, more precisely, this one. Could he rejoin the church after the census? He could, but should make sure to leave again before the next census, otherwise the advantage would be gone.

by **GalFisk** » Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:43 am

Is the advantage something caused by the church? The government? The economic system? Does it cause money to be given? Spent? Moved differently? Does it cause something else to move? Increase? Decrease? Tourism relevant? Atheism?

by **Sundowner64** » Tue Nov 07, 2023 8:53 am

GalFisk
Is the advantage something caused by the church? No. The government? Yes. The economic system? No. Does it cause money to be given? Spent? Moved differently? No to all. Does it cause something else to move? Hard to answer. Increase? This one. Decrease? And correspondigly, this. Tourism relevant? Could have impact. Atheism? Not per se, but atheists benefit as well.

by **GalFisk** » Tue Nov 07, 2023 1:24 pm

Does some activity increase? Some amount of an item or material? People? Voting relevant? Some other aspect of democracy?

by **Biograd1** » Tue Nov 07, 2023 9:16 pm

Are taxes relevant? property values? zoning restrictions? school funding?

So, the ratio of church members to total population is relevant? Is it relevant because the church gets to claim certain legal rights if X% of the population attends it? or because members of the church are exempt from some law, due to religious freedom/separation of church and state? If the former, would another (non-church) non-profit organization that serves a similarly large share of the population also be able to claim these rights?

by **Sundowner64** » Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:13 pm

Biograd
Are taxes relevant? property values? zoning restrictions? school funding? No to all.

So, the ratio of church members to total population is relevant? No. Is it relevant because the church gets to claim certain legal rights if X% of the population attends it? No. or because members of the church are exempt from some law, due to religious freedom/separation of church and state? No. If the former, would another (non-church) non-profit organization that serves a similarly large share of the population also be able to claim these rights? No (Relevant!).

by **GalFisk** » Thu Nov 09, 2023 2:31 pm

Did you forget my latest questions?

by **Sundowner64** » Thu Nov 09, 2023 8:07 pm

GalFisk
Did you forget my latest questions? - Rectified, with apologies.
Does some activity increase? Possibly. Some amount of an item or material? Yes for svv of "item". People? Voting relevant? Some other aspect of democracy? No to all.

by **GalFisk** » Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:28 am

SVV of item: does a value increase? A substance? The possibility of there being an item? Would it be productive to guess what the SVV item is made of? Is it made of anything?

by **Sundowner64** » Fri Nov 10, 2023 3:49 pm

GalFisk
SVV of item: does a value increase? A number of something increases. A substance? No. The possibility of there being an item? No. Would it be productive to guess what the SVV item is made of? Who knows? Is it made of anything? Not in a strict material sense.

by **Biograd1** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:48 pm

Is the item something tangible, but more important as an intangible thing that it represents (such as a "seat" in the town government)? Does this explain why the item is critical to the puzzle, despite it being impossible to guess the material it is made from?

by **Sundowner64** » Tue Nov 14, 2023 9:31 am

Biograd
Is the item something tangible, No, it's intangible in its entirety. but more important as an intangible thing that it represents (such as a "seat" in the town government)? Does this explain why the item is critical to the puzzle, despite it being impossible to guess the material it is made from? No, it's not made of any material because it's intangible.

by **Sundowner64** » Wed Nov 15, 2023 2:00 am

RECAP
An abstract item is relevant which is related to the feast of St Mary's Assumption. The item is not religious per se, though. It gives an advantage to the citizens of this town. The advantage is granted by the government. A census is relevant, and a ratio of numbers. (though, not the ratio of church members to total population)

HINT
Some information in the answers to Doriana's questions of 8 August has not been used so far.

by **GalFisk** » Wed Nov 15, 2023 7:37 am

Unused information:
Emil being HAM? Emil being protestant? Emil officially leaving the Protestant church? This happening in Germany? Emil not working at the pub? Emil being a pub patron?
Is the abstract item a prize? A festival? Is there one such item? A few? Lots? Uncountable?

by **Sundowner64** » Wed Nov 15, 2023 12:51 pm

GalFisk
Emil being HAM? Emil being protestant? This one. Emil officially leaving the Protestant church? And this one. This happening in Germany? Just as a matter of fact. I think there might be a few more countries where situations like this could arise. Not particularly relevant, though. Emil not working at the pub? Emil being a pub patron? Not relevant to the rest.
Is the abstract item a prize? No. A festival? This goes somehow into the right direction. Is there one such item? A few? There are several of such items but only one related to St Mary's Assumption. Lots? Uncountable? No, they're countable.

by **Biograd1** » Wed Nov 15, 2023 7:11 pm

Are the "items" holidays? Does someone's (other than possibly Emil's) work schedule change when he leaves the church?

by **Sundowner64** » Thu Nov 16, 2023 12:53 pm

Biograd
Are the "items" holidays? Yes. Does someone's (other than possibly Emil's) work schedule change when he leaves the church? Yes.

by **GalFisk** » Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:17 pm

Protestant holidays relevant? Catholic holidays? Other religious holidays? Secular holidays? Does him leaving mean an additional holiday for people? One less? One moved? Is there some rule or law determining which holidays an area observes based on how many members each churh has?

by **Sundowner64** » Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:34 pm

GalFisk
Protestant holidays relevant? Catholic holidays? This one. Other religious holidays? Secular holidays? Does him leaving mean an additional holiday for people? This one. One less? One moved? Is there some rule or law determining which holidays an area observes based on how many members each church has? Yes!

by **GalFisk** » Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:00 am

Does the majority religion set the holidays? And when he leaves, Catholicism becomes the majority?

by **Sundowner64** » Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:42 pm

GalFisk
Does the majority religion set the holidays? In this case, yes. And when he leaves, Catholicism becomes the majority? Yes.

SPOILER
In Bavaria St Mary's Assumption is a public holiday, but only in political communities with more Catholics than Protestants. The data are taken from the most recent census which in Bavaria takes place roughly every 10 years. Each political community (village, town, city) is treated separately, so it happens that one village has the holiday and the neighboring villages do not. Also, it matters only whether there are more Catholics than Protestants in that community, not how many followers of other religions or how many of the population are a member of a religion at all.

So imagine a small Bavarian village, 400 inhabitants, three surnames. And since years, 14 Catholics and 14 Protestants. So the government would say no, sorry, no holiday for you. And then Emil leaves the Protestant Church, giving the Catholics an advantage of one.

Congratulations for the solve and thanks for participating.