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by **WiZ** » Tue Nov 14, 2023 10:15 pm

What unusual item do a 12th-century Portuguese monk and a 21st-century Norwegian seed conservator both have in their kitchens?

Based on an urban legend to a degree, but the puzzle is more interesting this way. Caveat earlispoilor.

by **Sundowner64** » Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:51 am

One specific Portuguese monk? One specific Norwegian seed conservator? or generic people?
Is the Svalbard Seed Vault relevant? Is the Norwegian seed conservator's kitchen on Svalbard?
Do they need the item in the kitchen? for preparing food? for eating? drinking? cleaning up?

by **WiZ** » Wed Nov 15, 2023 2:01 am

One specific Portuguese monk? One specific Norwegian seed conservator? or generic people? Generic (although both of these sub-populations are pretty small, it must be said)
Is the Svalbard Seed Vault relevant? yes Is the Norwegian seed conservator's kitchen on Svalbard? and yes
Do they need the item in the kitchen? yes for preparing food? for eating? drinking? cleaning up? no to all

by **GalFisk** » Wed Nov 15, 2023 7:29 am

Are they the same actual items? Are the items manmade? Does the monk do anything related to seeds? Is the item related to seeds? Plants? Is it unusual for monks to have this item? For seed conservators?

by **Sundowner64** » Wed Nov 15, 2023 4:28 pm

Is the only relevance of being a seed conservator that the guy lives on Svalbard? Is some Svalbard stereotype relevant? bears? vodka? smuggling? polar night? aurea borealis?

by **WiZ** » Wed Nov 15, 2023 8:19 pm

GalFisk

Are they the same actual items? they're not completely identical, but they're categorically the same thing Are the items manmade? yes Does the monk do anything related to seeds? not relevantly Is the item related to seeds? Plants? no to both Is it unusual for monks to have this item? yes For seed conservators? no (I had to look up how worldwide seed conservation was - see my answers to Sundowner, below)

Sundowner

Is the only relevance of being a seed conservator that the guy lives on Svalbard? yes Is some Svalbard stereotype relevant? yes bears? yes vodka? no smuggling? no (interesting) polar night? aurea borealis? no to both

by **Biograd1** » Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:24 am

Do the items, while categorically the same, serve different functions? For example, a rope can be used both to hoist something using a pulley, or tie items down to the bed of a truck--in both cases it's a rope, but employed totally differently.

Does the Svalbardian (is that the word?) seed conservator use the item to defend against bears? hunt bears? keep some item (such as food) away from bears?

Does the monk use the item for a religious purpose? for a type of employment common among monks of his order (for instance, the way beer brewing was a common activity among Trappist monks)?

by **WiZ** » Thu Nov 16, 2023 9:19 pm

Do the items, while categorically the same, serve different functions? no For example, a rope can be used both to hoist something using a pulley, or tie items down to the bed of a truck--in both cases it's a rope, but employed totally differently. good illustration - but still no

Does the Svalbardian (is that the word?) Wikipedia gives the demonym as 'Svalbard residents', which isn't terribly exciting or uncumbersome seed conservator use the item to defend against bears? yes hunt bears? no keep some item (such as food) away from bears? yes

Does the monk use the item for a religious purpose? no (or a very indirect yes) for a type of employment common among monks of his order (for instance, the way beer brewing was a common activity among Trappist monks)? no

by **GalFisk** » Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:19 am

Are the items weapons? Barriers? Berbed wire? Bigger than breadboxes? does the monk also have to deal with bears? Other wildlife? Keeping something or someone out? In? Is this monk the only monk in the area who has this? Is he in a monastery? Is he a chief monk? Is he keeping other monks out of the monastery garden? Or other area? Or from leaving?

by **Sundowner64** » Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:56 pm

Is the item in the kitchen because it is going to be used there? because the kitchen is the most likely place where it would be needed?
As for the monk: was it a common equipment for a monk's household in the 12th century? in Portugal? or maybe for a Portuguese monk abroad? one specific religious order relevant?
The Bible word "I chastise my body and bring it into subjection" relevant?

by **Biograd1** » Sat Nov 18, 2023 5:56 am

I completely missed the word "kitchen" in the puzzle statement. That helps (hopefully)...

So in the case of the seed conservator, this item keeps stored food safe from bears trying to access it? In the case of the monk, does the item keep food away from someone/something else? keep food fresher?

by **WiZ** » Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:48 pm

Galfisk

Are the items weapons? no Barriers? yesish Berbed wire? ner Bigger than breadboxes? yes does the monk also have to deal with bears? outside of dungeons and dragons, no Other wildlife? Keeping something or someone out? In? Is this monk the only monk in the area who has this? Is he in a monastery? Is he a chief monk? Is he keeping other monks out of the monastery garden? Or other area? Or from leaving?

Sundowner

Is the item in the kitchen because it is going to be used there? yes because the kitchen is the most likely place where it would be needed? yope
As for the monk: was it a common equipment for a monk's household in the 12th century? in Portugal? no to both or maybe for a Portuguese monk abroad? no one specific religious order relevant? yes (no specialist knowledge of religious orders is needed to solve this)
The Bible word "I chastise my body and bring it into subjection" relevant? It is somewhat in the spirit of that verse, actually

Biograd

So in the case of the seed conservator, this item keeps stored food safe from bears trying to access it? not explicitly, no - although it would have this effect In the case of the monk, does the item keep food away from someone/something else? keep food fresher? no to both

by **BitterLemonCurry** » Mon Nov 20, 2023 7:48 am

Does the monk have this item also outside the kitchen? Is he wearing it/having it on his person?

Is the item used for prayer? A specific prayer relevant? Is the fact relevant that back in the day people used prayers in the kitchen for timekeeping (like "keep it on the fireplace for three Lord's prayers"?)

Was the item a rather new invention in the 12th century?

by **WiZ** » Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:44 pm

Does the monk have this item also outside the kitchen? yope Is he wearing it/having it on his person? no

Is the item used for prayer? no A specific prayer relevant? no Is the fact relevant that back in the day people used prayers in the kitchen for timekeeping (like "keep it on the fireplace for three Lord's prayers"?) no - although that is an interesting, different puzzle

Was the item a rather new invention in the 12th century? no

by **GalFisk** » Tue Nov 21, 2023 8:05 am

Are the items containers? Are they for keeping food? Drink? Preparing food? Drink? Hermetic sealing relevant?

by **WiZ** » Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:27 pm

Are the items containers? no Are they for keeping food? Drink? Preparing food? Drink? Hermetic sealing relevant? n/a to rest

by **GalFisk** » Wed Nov 22, 2023 7:33 am

Are the items made from: plastic? Metal? Glass? Ceramic? Rubber? Wood? Cork? Plant? Mineral? Animal? Fiber? Fabric? Wool/hair? Fur/skin/leather? Bone/tooth? Food? Drink? Gas? Are they tools? Toys? Utensils? Are they mechanical? Decorative? Expensive? Heavy? Dangerous? When the item keeps bears out, does it: hinder them? Confuse them? Resist them? Annoy them? Hurt them? Scare them? Do something to their sense of smell? Is the item smelly? Loud? On fire?

by **WiZ** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:16 pm

Are the items made from: plastic? Metal? Glass? Ceramic? Rubber? Wood? this Cork? Plant? Mineral? Animal? Fiber? Fabric? Wool/hair? Fur/skin/leather? Bone/tooth? Food? Drink? Gas? no to rest Are they tools? Toys? Utensils? no to all Are they mechanical? yes Decorative? potentially, but irrelevant Expensive? Heavy? yes to both Dangerous? not typically When the item keeps bears out, does it: hinder them? yes Confuse them? Resist them? no to both Annoy them? I imagine it would, but 'hinder' is closer Hurt them? Scare them? Do something to their sense of smell? no to rest Is the item smelly? Loud? no to both On fire? not unless something has gone horribly wrong

by **Sundowner64** » Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:46 am

Is it simply a wooden structure to prevent bears from entering the kitchen? through the window? through the door? a window shutter, if this is the right word?
Did the monks also use the item to keep bears out? other animals? people? to prevent people from looking into the kitchen? to prevent anyone from leaving the kitchen? to prevent the smell of alcohol or other substances going out (one never knows)?

by **WiZ** » Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:00 pm

Is it simply a wooden structure to prevent bears from entering the kitchen? yes, strictly speaking through the window? through the door? this a window shutter, if this is the right word? no
Did the monks also use the item to keep bears out? no other animals? no people? yes, FA lurking to prevent people from looking into the kitchen? no to prevent anyone from leaving the kitchen? no to prevent the smell of alcohol or other substances going out (one never knows)? no

by **GalFisk** » Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:16 pm

Is it a bar? Fence? Portcullis? Is the FA that monks plural are keeping people out? That people plural are being kept out? That it is about keeping out and not in?

by **WiZ** » Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:32 am

Is it a bar? Fence? Portcullis? no to all Is the FA that monks plural are keeping people out? That people plural are being kept out? no to both That it is about keeping out and not in? no, but this is closer

by **GalFisk** » Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:47 pm

Are the monks controlling the movement of people? Blocking it entirely? Taking payment for it? Is the device a drawbridge? A lock? Is it moved/actuated by hand? By one human? By machinery? By animal(s)? By the polar bear?

by **WiZ** » Tue Nov 28, 2023 8:04 pm

Are the monks controlling the movement of people? yes Blocking it entirely? no Taking payment for it? no Is the device a drawbridge? A lock? no to both Is it moved/actuated by hand? By one human? yes to both By machinery? yes, going by the renaissance definition of simple machines By animal(s)? By the polar bear? no to both

by **Sundowner64** » Wed Nov 29, 2023 11:06 am

Is the device something that physically prevents the bear from getting close to the door? that prevents the bear from opening the door? from breaking the door? from entering the kitchen after breaking the door?
The FA about the monks preventing people from passing through the door: did the monks actually want to prevent evil spirits from passing through? souls of the deceased?

by **WiZ** » Wed Nov 29, 2023 9:48 pm

Is the device something that physically prevents the bear from getting close to the door? that prevents the bear from opening the door? from breaking the door? from entering the kitchen after breaking the door? no to all, but this is closest - and this is a useful line of enquiry
The FA about the monks preventing people from passing through the door: did the monks actually want to prevent evil spirits from passing through? souls of the deceased? no to both

by **Biograd1** » Wed Nov 29, 2023 11:53 pm

Is the "item" simply a second door (as in, once one door is opened, there's a second right behind it that's also in your way, that must then be opened too)?

Is the FA that the monks are keeping other people (presumably non-monks, by the phrasing of the questions) out? whereas in reality monks are keeping each other out?

by **WiZ** » Thu Nov 30, 2023 2:31 am

Is the "item" simply a second door (as in, once one door is opened, there's a second right behind it that's also in your way, that must then be opened too)? no, but continuing to get closer

Is the FA that the monks are keeping other people (presumably non-monks, by the phrasing of the questions) out? yes whereas in reality monks are keeping each other out? still not correct, but closer

by **GalFisk** » Thu Nov 30, 2023 8:05 am

Is it a turnstile? Sluice? Gate?

by **Sundowner64** » Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:20 am

Is the device placed inside the kitchen? right behind the door?
Is it some physical barriere? a weapon? a trap? a distraction? a device that makes a noise? produces an unpleasant smell?
Would it keep the bear from moving on? fend it off? make it leave? confuse it? occupy its attention? immobilize it? kill it?
Would it be dangerous to people who enter the kitchen the same way?

by **WiZ** » Fri Dec 01, 2023 2:04 am

GalFisk

Is it a turnstile? Sluice? Gate? no to all

Sundowner

Is the device placed inside the kitchen? yesish right behind the door? no
Is it some physical barriere? yes, small ish a weapon? a trap? a distraction? a device that makes a noise? produces an unpleasant smell? no to all
Would it keep the bear from moving on? yes fend it off? make it leave? confuse it? occupy its attention? immobilize it? kill it? no to rest
Would it be dangerous to people who enter the kitchen the same way? not at all

by **Sundowner64** » Fri Dec 01, 2023 12:26 pm

Is the device entirely made of wood? is it bigger than a breadbox? bigger than a table? bigger than an upright standing person?
Does it have moving parts? does it need to be operated by a human? in order to fend of the bears? or would it (in case a bear approaches) act as a static barrier?
Is it always in the same place? or normally stowed away and put in place only when it's needed?
Does it not strictly prevent bears from entering the kitchen? but protects something inside the kitchen?
Is this also the FA regarding the monks? so it did not prevent people from entering the kitchen? but rather from accessing some part of the kitchen?
Was the idea (for the monks) to prevent people from stealing food? from having access to food that was (temporarily) forbidden? fasting or dietary restrictions relevant?

by **JenBurdoo1** » Sun Dec 03, 2023 11:47 pm

Is a key or lock relevant? Would a monk have used this item against bears? other pests that might have entered the garden outside the kitchen?

by **WiZ** » Mon Dec 04, 2023 3:32 am

Sundowner

Is the device entirely made of wood? yes is it bigger than a breadbox? yes bigger than a table? yope bigger than an upright standing person? yope, relevantly
Does it have moving parts? yes does it need to be operated by a human? yes in order to fend of the bears? or would it (in case a bear approaches) act as a static barrier? this is closer
Is it always in the same place? yes or normally stowed away and put in place only when it's needed? no
Does it not strictly prevent bears from entering the kitchen? no, this is the general idea but protects something inside the kitchen? no
Is this also the FA regarding the monks? so it did not prevent people from entering the kitchen? the idea is to prevent people from entering the kitchen but rather from accessing some part of the kitchen? although the idea is also to keep people away from something in the kitchen...
Was the idea (for the monks) to prevent people from stealing food? not stealing, but... from having access to food that was (temporarily) forbidden? yesish, see next fasting or dietary restrictions relevant? yes!

JenBurdoo

Hi, Jen!

Is a key or lock relevant? no Would a monk have used this item against bears? if bears were a reasonable threat to their particular monastery, I can see this being used to the same effect other pests that might have entered the garden outside the kitchen? no

by **GalFisk** » Mon Dec 04, 2023 9:14 am

Does the item make humans walk single file? Walk slowly? Enter one by one? Is the size of humans as compared to bears relevant? The weight? The walking style? The intelligence?

by **WiZ** » Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:02 pm

Does the item make humans walk single file? Walk slowly? Enter one by one? it would in all cases, but this is not the design intent Is the size of humans as compared to bears relevant? yes The weight? yesish The walking style? The intelligence? no to both

Although your last question reminds me of the great quote about why it's hard to design trash cans in national parks: "There is considerable overlap between the intelligence of the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists"

by **JenBurdoo1** » Tue Dec 05, 2023 1:32 am

Having worked in national parks and observed bears trying to get into trash receptacles... I can sympathise.

Is the intent to slow or obstruct entrance, whilst still letting people in? Is shape relevant? texture? how soft or hard the ground is? Is weather relevant?

Is it a "locking gate" of the sort that lets you in from one direction only - like turnstiles in subways, or revolving gates in zoos? Or, like revolving doors in hotels, can it confuse you into finding yourself back outside again when you were trying to get in?

by **WiZ** » Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:05 pm

Is the intent to slow or obstruct entrance, whilst still letting people in? in one of the two cases, yes Is shape relevant? yesish! texture? how soft or hard the ground is? Is weather relevant? no to the rest

Is it a "locking gate" of the sort that lets you in from one direction only - like turnstiles in subways, or revolving gates in zoos? no Or, like revolving doors in hotels, can it confuse you into finding yourself back outside again when you were trying to get in? no

by **GalFisk** » Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:00 pm

Does it have an opening whose shape is relevant? Does a person have to perform some action or contortion in order to enter? Such as climbing? Ducking? Balancing? Leaning? Crawling? Pulling? Is it a ladder? A rope ladder?

by **JenBurdoo1** » Wed Dec 06, 2023 6:28 am

Is it a maze of some sort, or otherwise a special path one has to take that is longer than expected?

by **WiZ** » Wed Dec 06, 2023 10:54 pm

GalFisk

Does it have an opening whose shape is relevant? yesish (mainly to 'shape') Does a person have to perform some action yope or contortion no in order to enter? Such as climbing? Ducking? Balancing? Leaning? Crawling? Pulling? no to all Is it a ladder? A rope ladder? no to both

JenBurdoo

Is it a maze of some sort, or otherwise a special path one has to take that is longer than expected? no

by **GalFisk** » Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:30 am

Is the opening narrower than a bear? Lower than a bear? Smaller than a bear? Is only the shape of the opening relevant? Or is there a relevant 3D shape? Such as a winding corridor? Which is bendier than a bear?

by **trebor2** » Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:06 pm

Would the monk use it to keep himself out of something? (Or away from something?) Perhaps for fasting purposes? Or penance?

by **WiZ** » Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:22 pm

GalFisk

Is the opening narrower than a bear? yes! Lower than a bear? Smaller than a bear? no to rest Is only the shape of the opening relevant? yes (or, more precisely, its narrowness) Or is there a relevant 3D shape? Such as a winding corridor? Which is bendier than a bear? no to rest

Trebor

Would the monk use it to keep himself out of something? (Or away from something?) yes to both! Perhaps for fasting purposes? yesish! Or penance? also yesish!

Getting close now

by **Sundowner64** » Tue Dec 12, 2023 11:11 am

Is it something close to a squeeze stile or wicket? A narrow opening where one has to squeeze through in order to get into the kitchen?
So for Svalbard it would then be wide enough for a human, but too narrow for a bear? And for medieval Portugal it would be wide enough for a slim person or a child but too narrow for a well-bellied monk?

by **WiZ** » Tue Dec 12, 2023 9:19 pm

Is it something close to a squeeze stile or wicket? no A narrow opening where one has to squeeze through in order to get into the kitchen? but yes
So for Svalbard it would then be wide enough for a human, but too narrow for a bear? correct And for medieval Portugal it would be wide enough for a slim person or a child but too narrow for a well-bellied monk? yes

I think you've got it, in principle

***** SPOILER *****

A narrow door.

[Some] houses in Svalbard have narrow doorways into kitchens and other rooms to protect their contents (and owners) from curious polar bears. At least one monastic order in Portugal had a narrow door from the kitchen to the dining room to prevent monks who were especially struggling with the whole 'fasting' requirement from accessing food until they'd slimmed down a little.

Congratulations, Sundowner, on the solution, and thank you everyone for playing!