lat-puzz.com

by **doriana_** » Tue Jan 09, 2024 10:37 am

This is a re-run of a puzzle I ran years ago on the old forum. I remember it being solved pretty quickly, so I'm re-running it as an OAATP. Based on a true story, usual OAATP rules apply.

How did a physics teacher (H/A/M) end up in a music exam?

by **BalinTheDwarf** » Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:47 pm

Was the teacher taking the exam?

by **GalFisk** » Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:54 pm

Was him knowing physics relevant?

by **doriana_** » Tue Jan 09, 2024 3:42 pm

Balin
Was the teacher taking the exam? No

GalFisk
Was him knowing physics relevant? No

by **WiZ** » Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:20 pm

Did he appear in the exam in the sense that he was in the exam room while the exam was taking place, or the sense that he (or one of his works/life events) turned up in a question on the exam?

by **GalFisk** » Wed Jan 10, 2024 7:43 am

Cheating, or fighting against it, relevant?

by **doriana_** » Wed Jan 10, 2024 9:35 am

WiZ
Did he appear in the exam in the sense that he was in the exam room while the exam was taking place This, or the sense that he (or one of his works/life events) turned up in a question on the exam?

GalFisk
Cheating, or fighting against it, relevant? Yes, among other things, but don't focus on it

by **GalFisk** » Wed Jan 10, 2024 9:50 am

Did he perform any physics-related task during the exam? Such as measuring sounds? Or radio waves?

by **Sundowner64** » Wed Jan 10, 2024 9:50 am

Did the exam require the students to show practical musical skills, like: singing, playing an instrument?

by **doriana_** » Thu Jan 11, 2024 9:14 am

GalFisk
Did he perform any physics-related task during the exam? Such as measuring sounds? Or radio waves? No

Sundowner
Did the exam require the students small FA to show practical musical skills, like: singing, playing an instrument? Irrel

by **Sundowner64** » Thu Jan 11, 2024 9:27 am

Was it an exam for music students? teachers? amateur musicians? professional musicians?

by **GalFisk** » Thu Jan 11, 2024 10:18 am

Was he there due to a mistake?

by **doriana_** » Thu Jan 11, 2024 12:20 pm

Sundowner
Was it an exam for music students? This, but same FA teachers? amateur musicians? professional musicians?

GalFisk
Was he there due to a mistake? No

by **BalinTheDwarf** » Thu Jan 11, 2024 2:40 pm

Was the exam for students?

by **GalFisk** » Thu Jan 11, 2024 3:29 pm

Is it relevant that he's a physics teacher specifically?

by **doriana_** » Thu Jan 11, 2024 3:42 pm

Balin
Was the exam for students? Yes, same FA

GalFisk
Is it relevant that he's a physics teacher specifically? No

by **GalFisk** » Fri Jan 12, 2024 8:24 am

Would it work with any non-music teacher? Any science teacher?

by **BalinTheDwarf** » Fri Jan 12, 2024 4:46 pm

Was the exam taken in a school?

by **doriana_** » Fri Jan 12, 2024 5:49 pm

GalFisk
Would it work with any non-music teacher? Yes Any science teacher? Yes

Balin
Was the exam taken in a school? Yes

by **Biograd1** » Sat Jan 13, 2024 6:50 am

Was the exam for students? Yes, same FA

Is the FA here that the students for whom the exam was "for" were the ones taking the exam while the physics teacher was present? Possibly the exam was written to later be taken by music students, but at the time of the puzzle it was being taken by someone else, possibly to try out the questions to see how difficult they were/how much time they would take to answer?

Or is the FA that the students were merely students, and weren't playing any other role in the puzzle? whereas in fact, the physics teacher, while a teacher with respect to his physics course, was also a student in another sense? (for example, he was taking a course on how to incorporate music into lectures)

by **doriana_** » Sat Jan 13, 2024 3:07 pm

Is the FA here that the students for whom the exam was "for" were the ones taking the exam while the physics teacher was present? Possibly the exam was written to later be taken by music students, but at the time of the puzzle it was being taken by someone else, possibly to try out the questions to see how difficult they were/how much time they would take to answer?

Or is the FA that the students were merely students, and weren't playing any other role in the puzzle? whereas in fact, the physics teacher, while a teacher with respect to his physics course, was also a student in another sense? (for example, he was taking a course on how to incorporate music into lectures)

No to both. It's much simpler than that - To prevent you all from getting OTWT, I'll just tell you that the FA is that there are multiple students.

by **trebor2** » Sat Jan 13, 2024 9:28 pm

Was this exam: part of the school curriculum? a exam related to accreditation/obtaining a performance level administered by an organization independent of the school?

by **GalFisk** » Sun Jan 14, 2024 8:33 am

Did the physics teacher have the non-multiple student in any class? Relevantly not have him/her?

by **doriana_** » Mon Jan 15, 2024 12:59 pm

trebor
Was this exam: part of the school curriculum? a exam related to accreditation/obtaining a performance level administered by an organization independent of the school? The exam was part of the German equivalent of A levels. It is administered by the school, but follows the rules and regulations of the respective State that it is taken in

GalFisk
Did the physics teacher have the non-multiple student in any class? Relevantly not have him/her? Irrel

by **GalFisk** » Mon Jan 15, 2024 3:32 pm

Was only one student examined? Only one student examined with this teacher present?

by **Sundowner64** » Mon Jan 15, 2024 3:41 pm

Was the physics teacher a member of the examination board? if so: did the law require that?

by **doriana_** » Tue Jan 16, 2024 9:03 am

GalFisk
Was only one student examined? Yes Only one student examined with this teacher present? But this would also work

Sundowner
Was the physics teacher a member of the examination board? Yes if so: did the law require that? Yope, explore

by **GalFisk** » Tue Jan 16, 2024 11:07 am

Relevant who else was present?

by **doriana_** » Wed Jan 17, 2024 7:07 am

Relevant who else was present? Yes

by **GalFisk** » Wed Jan 17, 2024 8:19 am

Present: music student? Music teacher? Some other teacher? Some non-teacher? Some non-school-staff?

by **doriana_** » Wed Jan 17, 2024 9:29 am

Present: music student? Yes Music teacher? Two music teachers Some other teacher? Some non-teacher? Some non-school-staff? No to rest

by **GalFisk** » Wed Jan 17, 2024 11:35 am

Is the physics teacher there mainly to the advantage of the student? The other teachers? Someone else?

by **naomi** » Wed Jan 17, 2024 1:09 pm

Is it relevant why there is only one student taking the exam?

by **Sundowner64** » Thu Jan 18, 2024 9:33 am

Was the physics teacher also teaching music?

by **doriana_** » Thu Jan 18, 2024 9:54 am

GalFisk
Is the physics teacher there mainly to the advantage of the student? The other teachers? Someone else? No to all. The physics teacher is there because of a relevant legal requirement, but not to the advantage of anyone in particular

naomi
Is it relevant why there is only one student taking the exam? No

Sundowner
Was the physics teacher also teaching music? No

by **GalFisk** » Thu Jan 18, 2024 10:47 am

Is the legal requirement that one child and one adult should not be alone together? Or something along those lines?

by **doriana_** » Fri Jan 19, 2024 10:22 am

Is the legal requirement that one child and one adult should not be alone together? Or something along those lines? No

by **GalFisk** » Fri Jan 19, 2024 11:29 am

Is the legal requirement related to test-taking? Some types of test-taking?

by **doriana_** » Fri Jan 19, 2024 12:52 pm

Is the legal requirement related to test-taking? Some types of test-taking? It is related to this specific type of exam

by **GalFisk** » Fri Jan 19, 2024 1:17 pm

Thes the examined student: write? Speak? Sing? Play an instrument?

by **doriana_** » Fri Jan 19, 2024 1:50 pm

Thes the examined student: write? No Speak? Yes Sing? Irrel Play an instrument? Irrel

by **GalFisk** » Fri Jan 19, 2024 1:56 pm

Is the speech relevantly: heard? Recorded? Filmed? Written down? Otherwise processed?

by **doriana_** » Fri Jan 19, 2024 1:58 pm

Is the speech relevantly: heard? Recorded? Filmed? Written down? Otherwise processed? What the student says is heard and written down by the people on the examination board, but this is largely irrel to the puzzle

by **Biograd1** » Fri Jan 19, 2024 4:48 pm

Is the legal requirement related to impartiality? Is the idea that a teacher in whose class the student is currently enrolled may have a preconceived idea of the student's academic performance, and this might bias his/her recording of what the student says during the exam? whereas a teacher who has never taught this particular student before will more neutrally record the responses?

by **doriana_** » Sat Jan 20, 2024 10:02 pm

Is the legal requirement related to impartiality? Not directly, but this plays a role Is the idea that a teacher in whose class the student is currently enrolled may have a preconceived idea of the student's academic performance, and this might bias his/her recording of what the student says during the exam? whereas a teacher who has never taught this particular student before will more neutrally record the responses? No

by **GalFisk** » Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:37 pm

Does the legal requirement say who should be present? How many?

by **doriana_** » Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:41 pm

Does the legal requirement say who should be present? Yes How many? Yes

by **GalFisk** » Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:48 pm

Is the legal requirement stupid when only one student is taking the exam? Leading to an excessive number of people having to be present?

by **doriana_** » Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:51 pm

Is the legal requirement stupid when only one student is taking the exam? No Leading to an excessive number of people having to be present? No

by **GalFisk** » Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:56 pm

How many people are present, apart from the student: 1? 2? 3? More?

by **doriana_** » Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:58 pm

How many people are present, apart from the student: 1? 2? 3? This More?

As this thread has reached 50 posts, OAATP restrictions are now lifted

by **GalFisk** » Sun Jan 21, 2024 9:00 pm

So the physics teacher is a part of those three due to him being on the examination board, correct? Is any other board member required to be present? Is the examiner a board mamber? Is the teacher who taught the student music present? Are all people present due to the requirements?

by **doriana_** » Sun Jan 21, 2024 9:11 pm

So the physics teacher is a part of those three due to him being on the examination board, correct? Yes Is any other board member required to be present? Yes, the whole examination board is required to be present Is the examiner a board mamber? Yes Is the teacher who taught the student music present? Yes Are all people present due to the requirements? Yes

by **GalFisk** » Mon Jan 22, 2024 6:58 am

Do we need to find out: what the requirements are? Why they're there? Why only one student is being examined? Why the physics teacher is on the board?

by **doriana_** » Mon Jan 22, 2024 9:55 am

Do we need to find out: what the requirements are? Why they're there? Why only one student is being examined? Why the physics teacher is on the board? This

by **GalFisk** » Mon Jan 22, 2024 10:08 am

Is the board otherwise all music teachers? Is he there in order to fill a vacancy? As a substitute? By mistake? Accident? Because he wants to? Does he relevantly know something about music? Relevantly not know? Is impartiality a factor?

by **doriana_** » Mon Jan 22, 2024 10:19 am

Is the board otherwise all music teachers? Yes Is he there in order to fill a vacancy? As a substitute? By mistake? Accident? Because he wants to? No to all Does he relevantly know something about music? Relevantly not know? Irrel Is impartiality a factor? Yes

by **Sundowner64** » Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:47 am

Is the requirement that there is a non-music teacher on the board? a senior teacher (or with some degree of experience, title, rank)? a man? a woman?
Could the student appoint one teacher for the board? and he chosed his physics teacher?
Language relevant? Is the student's native language not German, and the physics teacher is there to translate if necessary?

by **GalFisk** » Mon Jan 22, 2024 12:13 pm

Did the physics teacher expect this? Want this? Accept this? Enjoy this? Relevant? Is having a techer there that didn't teach the student relevant? Do the three board members relevantly perform the same job during the exam? Different jobs? Is what they do before the exam relevant? After?

by **doriana_** » Mon Jan 22, 2024 12:16 pm

Sundowner
Is the requirement that there is a non-music teacher on the board? No, and it is in fact quite unusual to have a non-subject teacher on the board a senior teacher (or with some degree of experience, title, rank)? a man? a woman? No to these
Could the student appoint one teacher for the board? No and he chosed his physics teacher? n/a
Language relevant? No Is the student's native language not German, and the physics teacher is there to translate if necessary? n/a

GalFisk
Did the physics teacher expect this? Want this? Accept this? Enjoy this? Relevant? Irrel to all Is having a techer there that didn't teach the student relevant? No Do the three board members relevantly perform the same job during the exam? Different jobs? They perform different jobs, which is relevant only insofar as the physics teacher's job can be done without having subject knowledge Is what they do before the exam relevant? After? No to both

by **GalFisk** » Mon Jan 22, 2024 12:21 pm

Are there only two music teachers? But the board must have three members? If there are more than two music teachers, relevant why one isn't on the board? Has something bad happened to that teacher? Has that teacher done something bad?

by **doriana_** » Mon Jan 22, 2024 12:32 pm

Are there only two music teachers? No, there are three But the board must have three members? Correct If there are more than two music teachers, relevant why one isn't on the board? Yes Has something bad happened to that teacher? Has that teacher done something bad? No to both

by **GalFisk** » Mon Jan 22, 2024 12:34 pm

Does the third teacher not want to be there? Is the thid teacher not qualified to be there? Has the third teacher not been able to join yet? Has the third teacher quit the board? Does the reason have nothing to do with the thid music teacher? Is the situation temporary? An emergency?

by **doriana_** » Mon Jan 22, 2024 12:39 pm

Does the third teacher not want to be there? No, he does Is the thid teacher not qualified to be there? He is technically qualified, but... Has the third teacher not been able to join yet? No Has the third teacher quit the board? No Does the reason have nothing to do with the thid music teacher? It does Is the situation temporary? The reason for the situation is permanent, but the situation itself is temporary An emergency? No

by **GalFisk** » Mon Jan 22, 2024 1:10 pm

Did the third music teacher cause this situation? When the situation ends, will s/he be able to be present at exams again? Does this happen once? If not, does this happen over one period of time? Does it come and go? Is the third music teacher unable to be there? Unwilling to be there? Would it cause inconvenience if s/he was there? If so, to the examiners? The student?

by **doriana_** » Mon Jan 22, 2024 1:25 pm

Did the third music teacher cause this situation? Yes When the situation ends, will s/he be able to be present at exams again? Yes Does this happen once? Yes If not, does this happen over one period of time? Does it come and go? Is the third music teacher unable to be there? DOYD of "unable". He would physically and mentally be able to be in the exam room, but... Unwilling to be there? No Would it cause inconvenience if s/he was there? If so, to the examiners? The student? No to all

by **Sundowner64** » Mon Jan 22, 2024 1:27 pm

Is the third music teacher a relative of the student?

by **doriana_** » Mon Jan 22, 2024 1:38 pm

Is the third music teacher a relative of the student? Yes!

********SPOILER********
The examination board of oral A-level exams in my state always consists of three teachers, two of which must be teachers of the subject the student is being examined in. Although not required by law, the third teacher usually is a subject teacher as well. My school only had three music teachers. One year, the only student taking an oral music exam happened to be the daughter of one of the music teachers. To avoid a conflict of interest, the vice principal, a physics teacher by training, replaced the music teacher on the examination board.