[Sundowner] Look what you've done

[Sundowner64]

Defeat paves the way to victory.

[GalFisk]

Defeat in: sports? Business? War? Fight? Argument? Game? Victory in: sports? Business? War? Fight? Argument? Game?
Was a person defeated? A team? An army? Nation? Did the defeat mena someone else was victorious? Did the lated victory mean someone else was defeated? Disqualified? Forfeited?
WAG: is this the Asterix at the Olympics comic where the other racers who compete with Asterix all drink the magic potion which has secretly been dyed blue, and then get disqualified for doping?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Defeat in: sports? This. Business? War? Fight? Argument? Game? Victory in: sports? This. Business? War? Fight? Argument? Game?
Was (Not yet) a person defeated? A team? This. An army? Nation? Did the defeat mean someone else was victorious? Yes. (but this could be misleading) Did the lated victory mean someone else was defeated? Yes. Disqualified? Forfeited?
WAG: is this the Asterix at the Olympics comic where the other racers who compete with Asterix all drink the magic potion which has secretly been dyed blue, and then get disqualified for doping? Good guess, but no.

[GalFisk]

Did the defeat and victory happen in the same match? Race? Other single sports competition event? In a league or other multiple-event happening? Was the defeat intentional? When the defeat happened, was it clear that it would lead to a later victory? Or likely? Or just possible? Or random chance? Does the sport involve: balls(s)? Vehicle(s)? Motor(s)? Referee(s)? Judge(s)? Was it televised? Relevant?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Did the defeat and victory happen in the same match? No. Race? Other single sports competition event? In a league or other multiple-event happening? Yes. Was the defeat intentional? It did not yet happen but hypothetically it could be intentional. When the defeat happened, was it clear that it would lead to a later victory? Or likely? Or just possible? This, I think. If the defeat would happen, it would make the later victory possible. Or random chance? Does the sport involve: balls(s)? This. Vehicle(s)? Motor(s)? Referee(s)? And this. Judge(s)? Was it televised? Relevant?

[Biograd1]

Is this in a tournament? If so, does the puzzle statement essentially mean that losing an earlier game/event puts a competitor (or team--which is it?) in a position where ultimately winning the tournament is more likely than if that competitor or team had won the earlier game/event?

Is some actual rule/physical aspect of this sport? or some property of the competitors against which they are competing? relevant here, in that it allows the outcome of an earlier game/event to truly influence their real world performance in a later game(s) or event(s)? or is this a purely mathematical paradox having to do with how tournament rankings are calculated? (i.e. something like Simpson's Paradox: https://www.stateoftheusa.org/content/a ... al-puz.php)

[Sundowner64]

Biograd
Is this in a tournament? Well, a league, so yes, a league is a tournament. If so, does the puzzle statement essentially mean that losing an earlier game/event Yes. puts a competitor (or team--which is it?) in a position where ultimately winning the tournament is more likely than if that competitor or team had won the earlier game/event? But not that. They would not win the league, but benefit in some other way.

Is some actual rule/physical aspect of this sport? Not as such. or some property of the competitors against which they are competing? One property of a competitor is relevant, strictly speaking. relevant here, in that it allows the outcome of an earlier game/event to truly influence their real world performance in a later game(s) or event(s)? No. or is this a purely mathematical paradox having to do with how tournament rankings are calculated? Yope. (i.e. something like Simpson's Paradox: https://www.stateoftheusa.org/content/a ... al-puz.php) But not this.

[GalFisk]

Would losing against one team mean thet they'd later play against a different team than if they would win? If so, a team they're more likely to beat? If so, would this make them more likely to reach the quarter finals? Semifinals? Final?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Would losing against one team mean thet they'd later play against a different team than if they would win? No, the fixtures of the league are defined already for the whole season. If so, a team they're more likely to beat? If so, would this make them more likely to reach the quarter finals? Semifinals? Final? There are no quarter finals and so on, just a round robin league.

[GalFisk]

Would it work if they lost deliberately? If they lost despite their best effort? Is it relevant against whom they'll play their next match? Some later match? Are individual players relevant? WAG: if they lose, will a team they meet later be more exhausted? Less prepared? Will losing give the losers more time to prepare? More motivation? Will they gain relevant knowledge? Coaches relevant?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Would it work if they lost deliberately? Yes. If they lost despite their best effort? Yes. Is it relevant against whom they'll play their next match? Yes. Some later match? Yes. Are individual players relevant? No. WAG: if they lose, will a team they meet later be more exhausted? Less prepared? Will losing give the losers more time to prepare? More motivation? Will they gain relevant knowledge? Coaches relevant? No to all.

[GalFisk]

Will they play their next match against someone who's likely to beat them? Someone who they're likely to beat? Someone who they're likely to beat if they lose the first match in question? Will the victory to which the defeat paves way be in the next match? A later match? Both? Does defeat guarantee later victory? Make it a lot more likely? A bit more likely? Does defeat have a relevant effect on: this team? An opposing team? Some other group? Some other person? A facility? WAG: does defect mean they can later play on their home field, where they have an advantage?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Will they play their next match against someone who's likely to beat them? Someone who they're likely to beat? I think they're on eye level. Someone who they're likely to beat if they lose the first match in question? No. Will the victory to which the defeat paves way be in the next match? No. A later match? Neither. Both? Does defeat guarantee later victory? Make it a lot more likely? This. I would say it's a prerequisite but not a guarantee. A bit more likely? Does defeat have a relevant effect on: this team? No. Good question. An opposing team? Yes. Some other group? Some other person? A facility? No to these. WAG: does defect mean they can later play on their home field, where they have an advantage? No, it's already set which matches they play at home and which away.

[GalFisk]

Does them losing affect: the team they lose against? A team they will play against later? A team they won't play against? A team which will relevantly play against someone that they (our heroes) will play against? More than one team? Is the later victory: in a match? A tournament? Something else related to the sport? Something not related to the sport? A court case? Is the later victory a victory against: themselves? Another team? A group? Person? Autohrity? Lawsuits relevant? Relevant what the later victory entails? If so: fame? Money? Prize(s)? Trophy/ies? Vindication? Opportunities?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Does them losing affect: the team they lose against? Yes. A team they will play against later? A team they won't play against? Yes. (rather, they played already) A team which will relevantly play against someone that they (our heroes) will play against? More than one team? Two teams are relevant. Is the later victory: in a match? A tournament? Something else related to the sport? Yes. Something not related to the sport? A court case? Is the later victory a victory against: themselves? Another team? A group? Person? Authority? This is really hard to answer. It's more an achievement of the team rather than a victory over someone else. Lawsuits relevant? No. Relevant what the later victory entails? Yes. If so: fame? Possibly. Money? Certainly. Prize(s)? Possibly. Trophy/ies? Possibly. Vindication? No. Opportunities? But in the first place an opportunity to achieve all the things mentioned before.

[GalFisk]

So losing will affect the team they lose against, and another team which they've already played against, correct? Did they lose against that other team? Win? Draw? Are any other matches than these two relevant? Do our heroes need to play any more matches in order to get the achievement? Is the achievement based on the two matches mentiones? More matches than that? The history of the team? If they get the achievement, will it be a record? World record? Something unique? The only team to have done [something]? Or the first?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
So losing will affect the team they lose against, and another team which they've already played against, correct? Yes. Did they lose against that other team? Win? Draw? Don't remember and it does not matter. Are any other matches than these two relevant? Only one match is relevant. The upcoming one in which they might have an incentive to lose. Do our heroes need to play any more matches in order to get the achievement? Yes, there are four matches still to play in the season. Is the achievement based on the two matches mentiones? More matches than that? It will be based on the team's performance throughout the season. Among other things. The history of the team? No. If they get the achievement, will it be a record? World record? Something unique? The only team to have done [something]? Or the first? No, nothing like this. Good thought, though.

[trebor2]

By losing, do they increase their chances of getting a higher draft pick in an upcoming draft? Does the victory we're talking about mean an actual victory in an actual game/match/whatever it's called for this sport? Does it refer to something else? Winning a bidding war for a certain player? Winning naming rights on a stadium?

Is this in professional sports? Amateur? Adult rec league? Kids? University/college? High school? Are you involved in any of the teams?

Is the game baseball? Basketball? Football, either North American or the rest of the world one? Doubles tennis? Or singles, but a team-based thing like I think the Davis Cup is? Golf, the same way? Badminton? Volleyball? Kickball? Lacrosse? Rugby? Does it matter? Would this work in another sport?

[Biograd1]

Let's call the team in question (the one that can benefit from losing) Team A, the team that A has already played Team B, and the team that A might benefit from losing to Team C.

Then has A won against B? If so, would A losing to C mean that B's standing/ranking in the league would decrease (because they lost to a team that itself lost to another team)? whereas if A beats C, that puts B and C in an equal position?

[Sundowner64]

Biograd
Let's call the team in question (the one that can benefit from losing) Team A, the team that A has already played Team B, and the team that A might benefit from losing to Team C. Sure.

Then has A won against B? Whether they actually won this match is irrelevant, what matters is the total number of points the teams will have in the end. If so, would A losing to C mean that B's standing/ranking in the league would decrease YES! (because they lost to a team that itself lost to another team)? whereas if A beats C, that puts B and C in an equal position? Most likely, yes.

[trebor2]

I think you missed my questions, but some might be irrelevant now.

[Sundowner64]

trebor2
I think you missed my questions, but some might be irrelevant now. - Sorry. Rectified, with apologies.

By losing, do they increase their chances of getting a higher draft pick in an upcoming draft? No. (the upcoming season is relevant, though) Does the victory we're talking about mean an actual victory in an actual game/match/whatever it's called for this sport? No. Does it refer to something else? Yes. Winning a bidding war for a certain player? No. Winning naming rights on a stadium? No.

Is this in professional sports? Yes. Amateur? Adult rec league? Kids? University/college? High school? Are you involved in any of the teams? No.

Is the game baseball? Basketball? Football, either North American or the rest of the world one? Yes, soccer. Doubles tennis? Or singles, but a team-based thing like I think the Davis Cup is? Golf, the same way? Badminton? Volleyball? Kickball? Lacrosse? Rugby? Does it matter? Would this work in another sport? Given the same stupid rules, yes.

[Sundowner64]

RECAP
In a pro soccer league one team might need to lose their last match of this season in order to achieve something else.
The achievement they aim for is something really valuable (sportive and also money-wise), not just a fun fact. Also, it is not a record.
The upcoming season is relevant, though neither drafting nor seeding.
When our team (the team A) lose the match to team C, that team C will increase in rank while another team B will go down.

[Biograd1]

Is the achievement getting to play a certain team in the next season? avoiding having to play a certain team in the next season? getting to participate in an event?

[doriana_]

Is qualifying for Champions League or Europa League relevant?

[Sundowner64]

Biograd
Is the achievement getting to play a certain team in the next season? avoiding having to play a certain team in the next season? getting to participate in an event? This, see below.

doriana
Is qualifying for Champions League or Europa League relevant? Yes, for the Champions League.

[GalFisk]

So there's a stupid rule about how one qualifies for the Champions League? Would a sensible rule mean that victory would lead to qualification? Does losing make a relevant number go up? Down?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
So there's a stupid rule about how one qualifies for the Champions League? Yes, parts of it are, say, counterintuitive. Would a sensible rule mean that victory would lead to qualification? "Sensible rule" and "Champions League" do not really go together. Does losing make a relevant number go up? Down? Yes, losing this particular match (together with some other condition) could mean that Germany can send 6 teams to the CL instead of 5 next year. (and you guess right that our team in question is currently on rank 6 safe but with no real chance of advancing to 5)

[doriana_]

I recently read an article about this scenario, so I'll stay out

[GalFisk]

Oh, so there's a relevant rule saying how many teams each country can send? Would it be useful to figure out the intention of the rule? Such as preventing one country from sending too many good teams and dominating the league? So if Germany is worse it can send more teams?

[trebor2]

Is Team A currently behind Team B, but if A beats C, then B's rank goes down to lower than A's somehow?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Oh, so there's a relevant rule saying how many teams each country can send? Would it be useful to figure out the intention of the rule? Such as preventing one country from sending too many good teams and dominating the league? So if Germany is worse it can send more teams? Not that, but close. It's actually a combination of several rules that makes things complex. Or people not considering the effect these rules can have in combination.

trebor
Is Team A currently behind Team B, but if A beats C, then B's rank goes down to lower than A's somehow? Not quite, but see below.

As the relevant match took place last Saturday, here the SPOILER.

The qualification rules for the UEFA Champions League brought that German side of Eintracht Frankfurt might have to lose their last match in the national league to RB Leipzig in order to qualify for next year's Champions League.

And this is how it goes:
Germany has four spots in the group stage: rank 1-4 in the national league
If Borussia Dortmund wins this year's Champions league (final match is 1 June), they would get an additional spot, but only if they do not yet qualify through rank 1-4 in the league. If they do, the additional spot would not go to the next team in the league (too straightforward) but instead to the European team with the highest club coefficient of those who did not qualify directly. Most likely this will not be a team from Germany.
Additionally, Germany gets this year one of two performance spots, awarded to countries that performed particularly well in the current edition of the Champions league. This spot will be taken by the next team in the league, but not by the Champions league winner.

Before the last round in the national league the standing was:

1 and already champion: Bayer Leverkusen
2 and 3: between Bayern Munich and VfB Stuttgart
4 and 5: between Borussia Dortmund and RB Leipzig
6: Eintracht Frankfurt

So the way to the Champions League for Eintracht Frankfurt is the following:
- Borussia Dortmund must win the Champions league final
- and at the same time finish on rank 5 in the league

And as Frankfurt cannot do much for Dortmund winning the Champions league, they can do something to keep them on rank 5: lose to RB Leipzig.

After all, the scenario did not come true as rank 5 for Dortmund was already sealed before the last match. So Frankfurt might now hope on Dortmund and the CL final. The match between Frankfurt and Leipzig ended in a draw, by the way (2-2).

I still remember the time when CL qualification was so simple: the champion of each country, from England to Luxembourg, qualified, and that was it. Look what they've done to it.

Thanks to all who participated and congratulations to GalFisk and trebor.