[Sundowner] Remember, remember, the 1st of September

[Sundowner64]

Maite asked whether her voluntary civilian service could start on 31 August instead of 1 September, although 31 August is a Saturday and she would not have to work on that day anyway.

[trebor2]

Does it matter what country she's in? What level of government she's working for? What her specific job will be?

Does it matter that Sept. 1st will be a Sunday? Does she specifically want to start work before Labour Day? Does Sept. 1st mark a birthday? deadline? anniversary? that she needs to start work before?

Was Maite serious in her request? Superstitions relevant?

[jondahr]

Did she have a need for stating to someone else on 31 August that she had already started the service? Was she trying to avoid something? To gain some advantage or perk?

[Sundowner64]

trebor
Does it matter what country she's in? It's in Germany, but I guess similar situations can come up in other countries as well. What level of government she's working for? What her specific job will be? Not particularly. Assume she is going to work in a hospital.
Does it matter that Sept. 1st will be a Sunday? No. Does she specifically want to start work before Labour Day? No. Does Sept. 1st mark a birthday? deadline? anniversary? that she needs to start work before? No to all.
Was Maite serious in her request? Let's assume yes. Superstitions relevant? No.

jondahr
Did she have a need for stating to someone else on 31 August that she had already started the service? Yes. Was she trying to avoid something? No. To gain some advantage or perk? Yes.

[jondahr]

So was the important thing that she could say she had been in the position for all of September? Or specifically on the 31st of August? Or that she had been there before September started?

Was her motivation to do with money? Reputation? Future opportunities? Health/medical benefits? Social status?

[Sundowner64]

jondahr
So was the important thing that she could say she had been in the position for all of September? Or specifically on the 31st of August? This Or that she had been there before September started? Which includes this

Was her motivation to do with money? This Reputation? Future opportunities? Health/medical benefits? Benefits are relevant, yes Social status? No

[jondahr]

Would this have worked with any month? Or is August especially relevant? Summer vacation relevant?

[Sundowner64]

jondahr
Would this have worked with any month? In theory, yes. But civil service in Germany usually starts on the 1st of September. Or is August especially relevant? Only in that it's the month before September. Summer vacation relevant? No.

[jondahr]

Do you get a full payment for every month you have worked in, no matter how many days?

[trebor2]

Is there one person that Maite needs to be able to report to that she has started work on August 31st? More than one person? Is it an organization? The government? Another potential employer? Her current employer?

[GalFisk]

Is the benefit: money? Access? A service? A parking space? Mass transit pass? Other travel/commute-related thing? Other life events relevant? Such as moving? Vacation? Other people relevant? Family?

[Sundowner64]

Correction: By "civil service" I mean "voluntary civilian service". This is a voluntary service of one year in various areas, ranging from hospitals to national parks, that young people up to the age of 27 can do in Germany. It's not paid, apart from a very small compensation for expenses.
Sorry for the confusion. I fixed the puzzle statement

jondahr
Do you get a full payment for every month you have worked in, no matter how many days? No.

trebor
Is there one person that Maite needs to be able to report to that she has started work on August 31st? Not Maite, but good question. More than one person? Is it an organization? The government? This. Another potential employer? Her current employer?

GalFisk
Is the benefit: money? This. Access? A service? A parking space? Mass transit pass? Other travel/commute-related thing? Other life events relevant? Such as moving? Vacation? Other people relevant? Yes. Family? Yes.

[GalFisk]

Family: spouse? Child? Parent? Sibling? Uncle? Aunt? Nephew? Niece? Cousin? Grandparent? Grandchild? Does the money come from the government? The place of service?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Family: spouse? Child? Parent? This. Sibling? Uncle? Aunt? Nephew? Niece? Cousin? Grandparent? Grandchild? Does the money come from the government? This. The place of service?

[GalFisk]

Does the money go to the parent? To Maite? Is there a relevant difference in the amount of money if she starts earlier? The date of payment? Does Maite relevantly pay her parent for something? Doe the paret pay Maite for something? Parent: mother? Father? Relevant?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Does the money go to the parent? Yes. To Maite? No. Is there a relevant difference in the amount of money if she starts earlier? Yes. The date of payment? Yes, explore. Does Maite relevantly pay her parent for something? No. Does the parent pay Maite for something? No. Parent: mother? Father? Relevant? Usually the money would go to the mother, but irrelevant.

[GalFisk]

Does she ask this simply to be nice to her parent? To help solve a problem? Did the parent ask for this? Does starting earlier mean one more payment? An earlier payment? Is there more than one payment? Relevant?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Does she ask this simply to be nice to her parent? To help solve a problem? Did the parent ask for this? Her request was probably not serious but if she indeed would start her service on 31 August this would give her parents some additional money. Does starting earlier mean one more payment? Yes. An earlier payment? Is there more than one payment? Exactly one payment which would happen in August. Relevant? To understand context, yes.

[GalFisk]

Relevant that august has 31 days while september has 30? If she didn't start earlier, would the payment be made later? Be smaller? Is the payment always made to the parent? Is the payment a direct consequence of their child doing voluntary service? Is Maite's age at the time relevant?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Relevant that august has 31 days while september has 30? No. If she didn't start earlier, would the payment be made later? If she starts 1 September the payment would not happen at all. Be smaller? Is the payment always made to the parent? Yes. Is the payment a direct consequence of their child doing voluntary service? Among other preconditons, yes. Is Maite's age at the time relevant? Somewhat.

[Sarisberie2]

Was she the only person who started a day early? Did she gain some kind of seniority? Were there settings she had to establish and if so did that affect others? Did anyone start more than one day early, or a day late?
Does she get twice as much by starting in August? Does her mother's service count? Does the extra money go to the mother? If so, does the mother pass on the extra money to Maite? Leap years relevant?

[Sundowner64]

Sarisberie
Was she the only person who started a day early? I have no idea. Did she gain some kind of seniority? No. Were there settings she had to establish and if so did that affect others? No. Did anyone start more than one day early, or a day late? Not that I know of.
Does she get twice as much by starting in August? No. Does her mother's service count? No. Does the extra money go to the mother? Yes. If so, does the mother pass on the extra money to Maite? Possibly. Irrelevant, though. Leap years relevant? No.

[GalFisk]

Would this work in any other pair of months than august/september? In any other pair of dates than the last and the first of subsequent months? Is the date of her birthday relevant? Is the money given to the parent in order to: pay or reimburse them for something? Reward them? Encourage something?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Would this work in any other pair of months than august/september? In theory, yes. In any other pair of dates than the last and the first of subsequent months? No. Good question. Is the date of her birthday relevant? No. Is the money given to the parent in order to: pay or reimburse them for something? Reward them? Encourage something? On a very general level, all of that.

[Sarisberie2]

Was it simply that she was the first employee? First in first out? Total length of employment relevant? Experience? Did anyone else start on a day other than 1st September? Would she finish her contract before the others? After? Could she claim seniority? Was her DoB relevant? School and/or summer holidays relevant?

Does something happen on or between the last date of one month and the first of the next? If so, which months does this apply to? Is there something which happens regularly like reconciling all the accounts or stock?
Sorry if I'm asking Q's which have already been A'd.

Relevant who she needed to tell that she had already started? Number of people told? Applicable to others?

[Sundowner64]

Sarisberie
Was it simply that she was the first employee? No. First in first out? No. Total length of employment relevant? No. (one year, by the way) Experience? No. Did anyone else start on a day other than 1st September? I have no idea. Would she finish her contract before the others? No. After? No. Could she claim seniority? No. Was her DoB relevant? Somewhat. Explore. School and/or summer holidays relevant? No.

Does something happen on or between the last date of one month and the first of the next? No. If so, which months does this apply to? Is there something which happens regularly like reconciling all the accounts or stock? No.
Sorry if I'm asking Q's which have already been A'd.

Relevant who she needed to tell that she had already started? She tells her parents, and they report it to the government. Number of people told? Applicable to others? Not relevant.

[GalFisk]

Birth year relevant? Month? Date of the month? Day of the week? Is her age relevant? Can it be said that if she started on the 1st, something expired? Something was too late? Relevant how much money they get?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Birth year relevant? Month? Date of the month? Yes to all. Day of the week? No. Is her age relevant? Yes. Can it be said that if she started on the 1st, something expired? Not really. Something was too late? Technically, yes, but I would not put it that way. Relevant how much money they get? About 250 EUR, exact amount is not particularly relevant.

[GalFisk]

Year: 1980s? 1990s? 2000s? 2010s?
Month in: 1st quarter? 2nd? 3rd? 4th?
Date: 1-10? 11-20? 21+?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Year: 1980s? 1990s? This. 2000s? Or this. 2010s?
Month in: 1st quarter? 2nd? 3rd? 4th?
Date: 1-10? 11-20? 21+? Could be all of them. Just her (exact) age is relevant.

[Sarisberie2]

Millennium Bug relevant? Was she born on Feb 29th?
ETA: Did she want to take her birthday off work, so she started a day early to compensate, and then took the 29th off the following year?

[Sundowner64]

Sarisberie
Millennium Bug relevant? No. Was she born on Feb 29th? Irrelevant.
ETA: Did she want to take her birthday off work, so she started a day early to compensate, and then took the 29th off the following year? No.

[GalFisk]

Is her exact age in years relevant? In days? Is her birthday relevantly close? Far away?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Is her exact age in years relevant? Her age in years is one of the relevant parts. But there is one more thing needed to entitle her parents to the payment. In days? No. Is her birthday relevantly close? Far away? Irrelevant.

[doriana_]

Is she underage? If so, under 16? 16? 17? If not, is she 18? 19? 20? 21 or older?
Insurance relevant? Child benefits relevant? Taxes relevant?

[GalFisk]

Is the other thing related to her age? If so, her age only? Is a cutoff date relevant?

[Sundowner64]

doriana
Is she underage? If so, under 16? 16? 17? If not, is she 18? 19? 20? 21 or older? This.
Insurance relevant? No. Child benefits relevant? Yes. Taxes relevant? Indirectly, as child benefits are an advance payment on the tax credit.

GalFisk
Is the other thing related to her age? No. If so, her age only? Is a cutoff date relevant? But date is relevant.

[GalFisk]

Are there dates other than those mentioned in the puzzle statement, and that which determines her age, which are relevant? Are more people relevant? Could anyone conceivably be in this situation?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Are there dates other than those mentioned in the puzzle statement, and that which determines her age, which are relevant? No. Are more people relevant? Just Maite, her parents and people in the government who handle the payment. Could anyone conceivably be in this situation? Given the same circumstances, sure.

[GalFisk]

Does the parent get this benefit because of her age? Has the parent gotten this benefit before? Is the benefit about to end, but doing this extends it to one payment more?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Does the parent get this benefit because of her age? Her age is relevant. From a certain age on she would not count as a child any more. But something else is relevant as well. Has the parent gotten this benefit before? Certainly. Is the benefit about to end - It has ended already - but doing this extends it to one payment more? Doing this will result in one extra payment. Explore.

[GalFisk]

Is the extra payment made because she somehow counts as a child again? Is it a loophole? A mistake? Some weird or obscure rule? Different definitions of adults? Different definitions of birthdays? A computer glitch? Other automation issue?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Is the extra payment made because she somehow counts as a child again? Yes. Is it a loophole? No, a purposeful rule. A mistake? Some weird or obscure rule? No. Different definitions of adults? No. Different definitions of birthdays? No. A computer glitch? Other automation issue? No to both.

[GalFisk]

Does she count as a child for a day? Less? A month? More? Does she count as a child in other respects besides the eligibility for the benefit? In all respects?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Does she count as a child for a day? Not only for a day. Less? A month? More? A whole year. Does she count as a child in other respects besides the eligibility for the benefit? Maybe health insurance, but I'm not sure. Irrelevant, though. In all respects? No.

Hint: Read the puzzle statement and check what piece of information you still might explore.

[GalFisk]

Maite asked whether her voluntary civilian service could start on 31 August instead of 1 September, although 31 August is a Saturday and she would not have to work on that day anyway.
Is her name relevant? Her gender? Her citizenship? Whom she asked? Why she does voluntary civilian service? Where? What kind? For how long? Would this work if August 31st was a monday? Friday? Did I miss something?

[Sarisberie2]

Does she just have to be younger than other volunteers? Or are the others irrelevant? If she is officially a year younger when she starts, is she exempt from tax or something else? Or does the money count as child support?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Maite asked whether her voluntary civilian service could start on 31 August instead of 1 September, although 31 August is a Saturday and she would not have to work on that day anyway.
Is her name relevant? Her gender? Her citizenship? Whom she asked? No to all. Why she does voluntary civilian service? No, but the fact that she does it. Where? What kind? For how long? No to all. Would this work if August 31st was a monday? Friday? Yes to both. Did I miss something? No.

Sarisberie
Does she just have to be younger than other volunteers? No. (but there is a general age limit of 27 for this kind of voluntary service) Or are the others irrelevant? They are irrelevant. If she is officially a year younger when she starts, is she exempt from tax or something else? No. (no one is exempt from taxes, this is Germany) Or does the money count as child support? Yes, that's the idea of child benefits.

[JenBurdoo1]

Is there a relevant limit or amount of time that the work must have gone on for in order to collect benefits - for example, must have worked four full months before December 31st, and if she'd started Sept 1, she'd have been a day short?

Is any other limit to some unrelated period relevant - for example must start before September to get a benefit from some other agency or employer?

[Sarisberie2]

Before the voluntary service, had she been at school, college, somewhere else?

[Sundowner64]

JenBurdoo
Is there a relevant limit or amount of time that the work must have gone on for in order to collect benefits Actually, yes - for example, must have worked four full months before December 31st, and if she'd started Sept 1, she'd have been a day short? Not this, but explore.
Is any other limit to some unrelated period relevant - for example must start before September to get a benefit from some other agency or employer? No, with a slight -ish.

Sarisberie
Before the voluntary service, had she been at school, college, somewhere else? College, yes, but irrelevant.

[GalFisk]

Relevant who made the law that enabled this? When it was made? Why? Is it tax code? Is it designed to encourage this kind of service? Encourage specific people to do it? Encourage them to do it before a certain age? Before something else? Does it relevantly encourage the parents to do something? Does she live with her parents? Relevant?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Relevant who made the law that enabled this? When it was made? Why? No to all. Is it tax code? Yes, but irrelevant. Is it designed to encourage this kind of service? Encourage specific people to do it? Encourage them to do it before a certain age? Before something else? Possibly all of this. The idea is that children who do a voluntary service still might need support from their parents, as they don't earn much. It's volunteering, after all. So the tax law equals children in voluntary service to children in (high) school education. Does it relevantly encourage the parents to do something? To support their children when they do voluntary service. Does she live with her parents? Relevant? No.

A very basic question about the modalities of these payments might help you.

[GalFisk]

Are they paid as: cash? Bank transfer? Cheque? Tax credits? Other credits? Vouchers? Relevant which year's taxes are affected? Relevant when they're paid? For how long a period they're paid?

[Sundowner64]

GalFisk
Are they paid as: cash? Bank transfer? Cheque? Tax credits? Other credits? Vouchers? Relevant which year's taxes are affected? Relevant when they're paid? This is relevant. For how long a period they're paid? And this.

[trebor2]

Is it just that August 31st is the cutoff date for one payout period? Do parents get the full payment even if their child has worked only one day in the period?

Does it matter what date the parents get paid? Would it be a date in September? October? November? December? Is it the 1st of the month? 15th? The last day of the month? Every two weeks? Annually?

I think I'm misunderstanding something. Can you help? Maitte's exact age in years is relevant, but she could have been born in either the 90s or 2000s, right? How is her exact age a factor if she could've been born any time within a 20-year period?

Is it relevant that the school year typically begins around Sept. 1st? Is August 31st typically a cut-off because children would be going back to school the next month (or end of August) and so have less time for volunteering?

Does Maitte count as a child because she didn't use up all the volunteer opportunities/payments when she actually was a child?

Does it matter what type of volunteer work she's doing? Does "civilian service" mean she's volunteering for the government in some capacity? Makes me think of civilian vs. military.

[Sundowner64]

trebor
Is it just that August 31st is the cutoff date for one payout period? Yes. Do parents get the full payment even if their child has worked only one day in the period? YES!

Does it matter what date the parents get paid? Not much, as long as it is once per month. Would it be a date in September? October? November? December? Is it the 1st of the month? 15th? I think it's that, but irrelevant. The last day of the month? Every two weeks? Annually?

I think I'm misunderstanding something. Can you help? Maitte's exact age in years is relevant, but she could have been born in either the 90s or 2000s, right? How is her exact age a factor if she could've been born any time within a 20-year period? The relevant part is that she is between 18 and 27, thus born between 1997 and 2006.

Is it relevant that the school year typically begins around Sept. 1st? Is August 31st typically a cut-off because children would be going back to school the next month (or end of August) and so have less time for volunteering? Yes, I think that's the reason why the voluntaring year is usually from 1 Sept until 31 August next year. Irrelevant, though.

Does Maitte count as a child because she didn't use up all the volunteer opportunities/payments when she actually was a child? She will count as a child (for purposes of child benefits) if she is doing voluntary service and is not older than 27.

Does it matter what type of volunteer work she's doing? No. Does "civilian service" mean she's volunteering for the government in some capacity? Possibly. Makes me think of civilian vs. military. Yes, this is the origin of this kind of service. People who did not want to serve in the military could do a civilian service instead. In the meanwhile military service has become voluntary, so it is entirely volunteering when people decide to do a civilian service.

[trebor2]

Is there anything left to solve? She asked that her voluntary service start on Aug. 31st so that her parents would get the payment for that month? Do we need to figure out what financial situation her parents were in? How many more months Maitte was going to be volunteering for?

[Sundowner64]

trebor
Is there anything left to solve? She asked that her voluntary service start on Aug. 31st so that her parents would get the payment for that month? Do we need to figure out what financial situation her parents were in? How many more months Maitte was going to be volunteering for?
Got it.

SPOILER
In Germany parents can receive child benefits when:
- the child is younger than 18
- the child is younger than 25 and in education (professional, high school, university, ..)
- the child is younger than 27 and doing voluntary service

The payment is made monthly and as soon as the conditions are fulfilled for at least one day in that month.

So, hypothetically, if Maite would do her service from 31 Aug 2024 - 30 Aug 2025 instead of the usual 1 Sep 2024 - 31 Aug 2025 she would serve the same number of days but her parents would get the child benefits for 13 months instead of 12.

Well done and thanks to all who joined.