lat-puzz.com

by **CoffeeBean** » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:24 pm

True story...

My friend Jeremy made a statement about a man he'd never met before. Jeremy made an accurate statement about the man's past and his present, then made a predication about the man's future. Jeremy then walked approximately 20 feet and stopped. A woman standing near me commented, "Wow, he was exactly right." What did Jeremy know?

by **WiZ** » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:43 pm

Intriguing!

Can we call the man whom Jeremy had never met Keith? If so:

Is Keith famous? Despite not having met Keith, had Jeremy communicated with him or had something to do with him in the past? Is Keith present or nearby when Jeremy makes the statement? Can he see Jeremy walk? Does Jeremy's walk affect Keith in any way?

Is the location of the conversation relevant? Are they inside? Outside? In a public place? At a workplace? In a place of entertainment?

Does Jeremy predict that Keith will do something? That something will happen to him? That some quality/attribute will apply to Keith?

by **CoffeeBean** » Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:28 pm

Can we call the man whom Jeremy had never met Keith? Sure If so:

Is Keith famous? No Despite not having met Keith, had Jeremy communicated with him or had something to do with him in the past? No Is Keith present or nearby when Jeremy makes the statement? Yes
Can he see Jeremy walk? Yes...but... Does Jeremy's walk affect Keith in any way? No

Is the location of the conversation relevant? Yes Are they inside? Outside? Both, at times
In a public place? At a workplace? Yes to this In a place of entertainment?

Does Jeremy predict that Keith will do something? Yes That something will happen to him? This too
That some quality/attribute will apply to Keith? Well, indirectly, yes

by **GalFisk** » Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:49 am

Future: seconds? Minutes? More? Did he predict an accident? Obliviousness relevant? Such as walking with one's face in a smartphone?

by **CoffeeBean** » Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:13 pm

Future: seconds? Minutes? More? When he made the prediction about the future it would have been a period of no more than 1-2 minutes
Did he predict an accident? No Obliviousness relevant? In a way, yes
Such as walking with one's face in a smartphone? No, not in this way

by **JenBurdoo** » Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:57 pm

Did he predict that a shadow would fall on Keith, then walk to a position where his own shadow fell on Keith? Visibility or angle of something in the distance relevant? Are they standing in line / a queue?

by **CoffeeBean** » Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:47 pm

Did he predict that a shadow would fall on Keith, then walk to a position where his own shadow fell on Keith? No
Visibility or angle of something in the distance relevant? Visibility is relevant, yes
Are they standing in line / a queue? No

by **Earnest** » Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:13 pm

Future: seconds? Minutes? More? When he made the prediction about the future it would have been a period of no more than 1-2 minutes --> did Jeremy know that the prediction would have been realized within 1-2 minutes?
Was the forecast on the future surprising in that it revealed something improbable/unlikely to happen? In contrast, for insstance, Jeremy could have simply said something like: Keith is an expert about a subject and has experience (past), now he is on the trapeze above (present) and he will take me once I stop walking

Past: seconds? Minutes? More?

walked approximately 20 feet and stopped --> relevant where he walked? did he walk toward someone? Near someone? on a trampoline?

Was there a public? Is Jeremy's work relevant? Magician? predicator? Priest? Politician? Hypnothizer?Others?
If he is a magician (or related) was Keith his assistant?

Does Jeremy make the statement without knowing who precisely would have done what he forecasted? E.g. he said that "generically" someone would have made something in the future?
Jeremy said that Keith would have said something (e.g. that Keith would have screamed once he stepped on Keiths' toes)? Did Jeremy and Keith take agreements before?

by **CoffeeBean** » Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:37 pm

Future: seconds? Minutes? More? When he made the prediction about the future it would have been a period of no more than 1-2 minutes --> did Jeremy know that the prediction would have been realized within 1-2 minutes? Yes, he knew this
Was the forecast on the future surprising in that it revealed something improbable/unlikely to happen? Yes, but another factor as well
In contrast, for instance, Jeremy could have simply said something like: Keith is an expert about a subject and has experience (past), now he is on the trapeze above (present) and he will take me once I stop walking Not this kind of prediction

Past: seconds? Minutes? More? No more than 1-2 minutes at most

walked approximately 20 feet and stopped --> relevant where he walked? Yes did he walk toward someone? Yes Near someone? Yes on a trampoline? No

Was there a public? No Is Jeremy's work relevant? Yes Magician? predicator? Priest? Politician? Hypnotizer? Others? It's something else
If he is a magician (or related) was Keith his assistant? No

Does Jeremy make the statement without knowing who precisely would have done what he forecasted? E.g. he said that "generically" someone would have made something in the future? No, Jeremy said that Keith would do something specific and he was right
Jeremy said that Keith would have said something (e.g. that Keith would have screamed once he stepped on Keiths' toes)? Yes, part of Jeremy's prediction was about something that Keith would say
Did Jeremy and Keith take agreements before? No - at the time Jeremy made the prediction he had never seen or talked to Keith before

by **GalFisk** » Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:27 am

Did Jeremy observe this behavior in others? Was this something most or all people in Keith's situation did?

by **CoffeeBean** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:14 pm

Did Jeremy observe this behavior in others? Unknown but very likely
Was this something most or all people in Keith's situation did? Very likely, yes

by **Sundowner** » Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:07 pm

Was it Jeremy's workplace? Keith's? the woman's?
Was the workplace outdoors?
Did Jeremy walk towards Keith? Away from Keith?
Is Jeremy at his job when this happens? Was approaching Keith part of his job? Could Keith be considered as a customer or client of Jeremy?
Did Jeremy see Keith when his prediction came true? did the woman see Keith?

by **CoffeeBean** » Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:41 pm

Was it Jeremy's workplace? Yes, and...the woman's?...hers as well. Keith's? No
Was the workplace outdoors? No
Did Jeremy walk towards Keith? Yes Away from Keith?
Is Jeremy at his job when this happens? Yes Was approaching Keith part of his job? He would say this, yes Could Keith be considered as a customer Yes or client of Jeremy? ...but not really of Jeremy (partial FA)
Did Jeremy see Keith when his prediction came true? Yes did the woman see Keith? Yes

by **trebor** » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:04 pm

Is a crime involved? Pickpocketing?

Is Keith frightened of Jeremy? Or of the woman? Is Jeremy wearing something that denotes his profession? Is the woman?

Is Keith a customer of the woman? A customer of the place they work at? A patron? Is religion relevant?

by **CoffeeBean** » Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:04 pm

Is a crime involved? Yes - good q Pickpocketing? Not this one

Is Keith frightened of Jeremy? Possibly at one point in time, yes Or of the woman? Not quite "Frightened" of her but somewhat ORT
Is Jeremy wearing something that denotes his profession? Is the woman? Yes to both

Is Keith a customer of the woman? Not directly, no, but... A customer of the place they work at? ...somewhat, but...A patron? ...this is a better description. Is religion relevant? No

by **biograd** » Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:29 pm

Had a crime already been committed? was about to be commited?

Did Keith commit (or was about to commit) a crime? Jeremy? the woman (probably not, as she merely commented on the situation, but you never know)? or was a crime committed by someone who is not a party in this puzzle? against one of the people in the puzzle?

Did Jeremy predict the crime? predict how someone would react to the crime?

by **CoffeeBean** » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:05 pm

Had a crime already been committed? was about to be commited? Both of these were the case at some point in the time frame of the puzzle

Did Keith commit (or was about to commit) a crime? Both of these were the case at some point in time as well Jeremy? No the woman (probably not, as she merely commented on the situation, but you never know)? No or was a crime committed by someone who is not a party in this puzzle? No
against one of the people in the puzzle? Not directly

Did Jeremy predict the crime? No, but... predict how someone would react to the crime?...this was part of his prediction, yes

by **trebor** » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:15 pm

Does Jeremy work in law enforcement? Does the woman? Do they have the same profession? Are either of them a cop? Parking enforcement officer?

by **CoffeeBean** » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:26 pm

Does Jeremy work in law enforcement? Does the woman? Neither of them do
Do they have the same profession? Only in one aspect, but mostly they do not
Are either of them a cop? Parking enforcement officer? No

by **biograd** » Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:15 pm

Was either (or both) of the crimes stealing from the business where Jeremy works? Was Jeremy's "prediction" based upon suspicion of the crime? was it that Keith had a stolen object in his possession?

by **Sundowner** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:19 pm

Was Keith about to steal something? i.e. had taken something from the shelf and put it in his pocket but did not yet leave the shop?
Did Jeremy and the woman both work for the shop? is the thing they have in common that they work for the same company? but in different professions? is Jeremy a shop detective?
Was Jeremy's prediction on how Keith would react upon being caught and confronted? that he would deny any attempt to steal? that he would secretly try to get rid of the stolen item?

by **CoffeeBean** » Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:16 pm

Was either (or both) of the crimes stealing from the business where Jeremy works? Yes, this was the only relevant crime
Was Jeremy's "prediction" based upon suspicion of the crime? At one point, yes
was it that Keith had a stolen object in his possession? Yes, this was part of his prediction

Was Keith about to steal something? Yes, prior to Jeremy's predictions
i.e. had taken something from the shelf and put it in his pocket but did not yet leave the shop? Yes, this is actually one of the things that Jeremy said to the woman
Did Jeremy and the woman both work for the shop? Yes
is the thing they have in common that they work for the same company? Yes
but in different professions? Yes is Jeremy a shop detective? No, and this is somewhat relevant
Was Jeremy's prediction on how Keith would react upon being caught and confronted? Yes, this was the thing that Jeremy accurately predicted about the future
that he would deny any attempt to steal? Yes, and one other thing that Keith would do
that he would secretly try to get rid of the stolen item? No, not this

by **GalFisk** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:51 am

The other thing: pay? Run? Plead? Threaten? Stay silent? Something criminal?

by **Sundowner** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:58 am

Did Keith claim that he was hired by the shop management to test the staff's attention?
Which Jeremy know to be wrong? as he was the shop manager?

by **trebor** » Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:47 am

Is it relevant what kind of shop they worked in? What item Keith was stealing? Was it a grocery store?* Bookstore? Music store? Clothing? Home items?

*I really hate how there are security guards and cameras in grocery stores. Like, if a person is stealing food, maybe just...let them? Because maybe the more unethical thing than someone stealing food so they don't go hungry is setting up and maintaining systems of oppression wherein that is necessary for them? End of rant.

by **CoffeeBean** » Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:34 pm

The other thing: pay? Run? Plead? Partly this, while doing something else at the same timeThreaten? Stay silent? Something criminal? No

Did Keith claim that he was hired by the shop management to test the staff's attention? No
Which Jeremy know to be wrong? N/A as he was the shop manager? Jeremy wasn't the manager

Is it relevant what kind of shop they worked in? One aspect of it is relevant, yes What item Keith was stealing? To a degree, yes, because of something that Jeremy was able to do Was it a grocery store?* Yes
Bookstore? Music store? Clothing? Home items?

*I really hate how there are security guards and cameras in grocery stores. Like, if a person is stealing food, maybe just...let them? Because maybe the more unethical thing than someone stealing food so they don't go hungry is setting up and maintaining systems of oppression wherein that is necessary for them? End of rant.
Or like during Hurricane Katrina, when looters were encouraged to steal as much as they could because, in Celine Dion's words, "Some people have never been able to hold something like an expensive TV before, so we should let them do that..."

It wasn't food that Keith was stealing, and this is relevant

by **trebor** » Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:19 pm

Is a particular area of the grocery store relevant? If so, the tills? Self checkout? Produce? Deli? Bakery? Dairy? Regular aisles? The stock rooms?

by **CoffeeBean** » Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:28 pm

Is a particular area of the grocery store relevant? Yes
If so, the tills? If by this you mean "checkout area" then yes
Self checkout? No (this wasn't available when these events took place)
Produce? This is relevant as well
Deli? Bakery? Dairy? Regular aisles? The stock rooms? None of these are relevant

by **trebor** » Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:07 pm

Was Keith stealing something from the produce area? From the checkout area? Was he stealing bags? Money? Twist ties? Boxes? Lottery tickets? Cigarettes? Did Jeremy predict that Keith would return to the area he had gotten the thing from and attempt to put it back? Feign innocence? Say that it must have fallen into his pocket somehow?

by **CoffeeBean** » Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:16 pm

Was Keith stealing something from the produce area? No... From the checkout area? ...yes, this.
Was he stealing bags? Money? Twist ties? Boxes? Lottery tickets? Cigarettes? This
Did Jeremy predict that Keith would return to the area he had gotten the thing from and attempt to put it back? No Feign innocence? Possibly at first, but ultimately would do something else specific
Say that it must have fallen into his pocket somehow? Maybe, or some other excuse, but ultimately would do and say something specific

by **biograd** » Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:44 am

Would he say he was going outside for a smoke break?

by **CoffeeBean** » Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:06 pm

Would he say he was going outside for a smoke break? No

by **trebor** » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:23 pm

Does Keith say that he is going to light up in the store? Does what Keith says have something to do with the produce department? Does what he does have something to do with it?

Does Keith relevantly purchase anything while in the store? Is he intending to purchase anything, but still steal the cigarettes?

by **CoffeeBean** » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:53 pm

Does Keith say that he is going to light up in the store? No
Does what Keith says have something to do with the produce department? No
Does what he does have something to do with it? No

Does Keith relevantly purchase anything while in the store? Is he intending to purchase anything, but still steal the cigarettes?
It's unknown whether or not he intended to purchase anything. Based on something that Jeremy said after the incident it is not likely that Keith intended on purchasing anything.

by **CoffeeBean** » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:03 pm

RECAP

Jeremy made a statement about something that Keith had done in the past, was doing at the present, and would do in the next 1-2 minutes.
Keith is nearby when Jeremy makes the statement.
The incident happens at a grocery store where Jeremy and the woman (and I) all worked.
Jeremy told the woman, at one point, that Keith had taken cigarettes and put them in his pocket.
Jeremy predicts what Keith will say and do based very likely on his past observations of similar people.
When Keith takes the cigarettes he is standing in the checkout area, but something about the produce area is also relevant.
It is relevant that Keith was stealing cigarettes, as opposed to most other items in the store.

by **trebor** » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:17 am

Is racial profiling relevant? Is Keith the same ethnicity as Jeremy? Does it matter in which country this occurs?

Testing an assumption here, but does Keith also work at the store?

Is the relevant thing about the produce department: the produce? (Or a specific bit of produce?) Juice? Smoothies? Herbs? Herb pastes, like dill paste or whatever? Something else people can buy? The layout of the department? The workers in the department? The shelves? baskets? displays? etc? that items are in/on? Cardboard boxes? Birds that sometimes get into the store? Insects? The fact that the produce is usually laid out near the entrance? That it has refrigeration for some items? The watering system?

by **biograd** » Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:35 am

Is it relevant that cigarettes are age restricted? Did Keith pretend he was some kind of "undercover tester" sent to stores to see how accessible cigarettes were to underage shoppers?

by **CoffeeBean** » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:19 pm

Is racial profiling relevant? No
Is Keith the same ethnicity as Jeremy? Not relevant
Does it matter in which country this occurs? No - it happened in the US but likely could have taken place else where

Testing an assumption here, but does Keith also work at the store? No

Is the relevant thing about the produce department: the produce? (Or a specific bit of produce?) Juice? Smoothies? Herbs? Herb pastes, like dill paste or whatever? Something else people can buy? None of this
The layout of the department? Yes, this and...The workers in the department?...just one of them.
The shelves? baskets? displays? etc? that items are in/on? Cardboard boxes? Birds that sometimes get into the store? Insects? The fact that the produce is usually laid out near the entrance? That it has refrigeration for some items? The watering system? The only part of this that is relevant is that the produce area is located near the front of the store

Is it relevant that cigarettes are age restricted? Indirectly, yes
Did Keith pretend he was some kind of "undercover tester" sent to stores to see how accessible cigarettes were to underage shoppers? No

by **biograd** » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:15 pm

Trying to get at the general type of excuse/justification/"out" Keith gives through his action...

Does Keith say/imply that he would return later to pay for the cigarettes? that he thought he had already paid for them? that he had been intending to buy them but then got distracted by something else? that they had already been his before he entered the store? that they fell into his pocket/otherwise got onto his person without his active intent to grab them? that he thought they were something else?

by **CoffeeBean** » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:48 pm

Trying to get at the general type of excuse/justification/"out" Keith gives through his action...Keith doesn't give an excuse.

Does Keith say/imply that he would return later to pay for the cigarettes? that he thought he had already paid for them? that he had been intending to buy them but then got distracted by something else? that they had already been his before he entered the store? that they fell into his pocket/otherwise got onto his person without his active intent to grab them? that he thought they were something else? He might say any of these things, but it's not necessary that he say anything in this situation. It's more about something else that gets said...

by **biograd** » Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:36 am

So the thing Keith did/said was NOT intended to "explain away" the cigarettes in his possession? Was it intended rather to convince the store employees that they were mistaken when they thought they saw him take the cigarettes? to allow him to pass the cigarettes to someone else (an accomplice) undetected?

by **CoffeeBean** » Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:28 pm

So the thing Keith did/said was NOT intended to "explain away" the cigarettes in his possession? He may have done this, but Jeremy's prediction was about something else specific that Keith would do, and it doesn't require Keith saying anything in order for the prediction to come true.
Was it intended rather to convince the store employees that they were mistaken when they thought they saw him take the cigarettes? to allow him to pass the cigarettes to someone else (an accomplice) undetected? Keith may have said these things but the thing Jeremy predicted was something else

by **biograd** » Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:00 pm

I'm trying to get at the purpose, though, of the action that Jeremy predicted Keith would take.

So you say it is not to provide a justification for possessing the cigarettes, nor is it to convince the employees they didn't see him grab them, nor is it to get rid of the cigarettes before they can catch him with them, correct?

Did the action involve touching the cigarettes or moving them around on his person? placing something else (like a jacket) to hide the pocket with the cigarettes from view?

You said that the fact that cigarettes are age-restricted is indirectly relevant--does the relevance have to do with showing ID?

by **CoffeeBean** » Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:27 pm

I'm trying to get at the purpose, though, of the action that Jeremy predicted Keith would take.
Hint: It has more to do with someone besides Keith than it does Keith himself

So you say it is not to provide a justification for possessing the cigarettes, nor is it to convince the employees they didn't see him grab them, nor is it to get rid of the cigarettes before they can catch him with them, correct? Correct. If Keith had said, or tried to say any of these things, he would have very quickly realized that it would do him no good.

Did the action involve touching the cigarettes or moving them around on his person? placing something else (like a jacket) to hide the pocket with the cigarettes from view? The action would have required touching and moving them, yes, but not attempting to hide them from view

You said that the fact that cigarettes are age-restricted is indirectly relevant--does the relevance have to do with showing ID? This is also indirectly relevant. There's something about this that made it possible for Jeremy to make the accurate predictions.

by **biograd** » Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:59 pm

Does it have to do more with Jeremy? with the woman?

But you do say that the prediction also involved Keith himself performing an action, that would require him touching and moving the cigarettes, correct? and the purpose/intent of this action (i.e. the movement) is not to communicate/justify any of the things that I have asked, also correct?

Assuming this is correct, is the intent of the movement to take attention away from himself? from the cigarettes? to make it so that he could not technically be accused of stealing? Is the action simply to go to a cashier and actually purchase the cigarettes?

by **CoffeeBean** » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:10 pm

Does it have to do more with Jeremy? Yes with the woman? No - but she plays a very important role that hasn't yet been explored...

But you do say that the prediction also involved Keith himself performing an action, that would require him touching and moving the cigarettes, correct? Correct and the purpose/intent of this action (i.e. the movement) is not to communicate/justify any of the things that I have asked, also correct? Also correct (see below)

Assuming this is correct, is the intent of the movement to take attention away from himself? No, not possible
from the cigarettes? No, also not possible
to make it so that he could not technically be accused of stealing? YES. and there's not really a "technically" aspect involved...
Is the action simply to go to a cashier and actually purchase the cigarettes? No but this is OTRT

by **GalFisk** » Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:25 pm

Is the action to show a receipt for cigarettes? To claim he bought them there? That he bought them selwhere and came in with them?

by **CoffeeBean** » Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:19 pm

Is the action to show a receipt for cigarettes? No
To claim he bought them there? That he bought them selwhere and came in with them? No - the accurate prediction that Jeremy made has nothing to do with anything that Keith says or would say. It's possible that Keith made some excuse or claim, but Jeremy's prediction was something that Keith would do, and it wouldn't require him saying anything...

by **Mimino** » Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:28 pm

Does the action involve moving the pack of cigarettes? opening it? touching or moving something else?
Does Keith simply give Jeremy the pack?

by **CoffeeBean** » Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:50 pm

Does the action involve moving the pack of cigarettes? opening it? touching or moving something else?
Does Keith simply give Jeremy the pack? Yes, this.

So how could Jeremy accurately predict what Keith would do? Hint: It is indirectly related to the Produce Department at the grocery store

by **Sundowner** » Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:44 pm

Is any specific kind of produce relevant? vegetables? fruits? seeds?
Any relevant sign in the produce area?
Does Keith indirectly claim that cigarettes are produce?
Is there a return policy relevant? like the store takes back any unopened package within the best before date?

by **CoffeeBean** » Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:04 pm

Is any specific kind of produce relevant? vegetables? fruits? seeds? No
Any relevant sign in the produce area? No
Does Keith indirectly claim that cigarettes are produce? No
Is there a return policy relevant? like the store takes back any unopened package within the best before date? Not relevant

It has been discovered that the layout and location of the produce department are relevant, and one worker in the produce department is relevant. Also, it has been mentioned that the woman plays an important yet undiscovered role.

by **biograd** » Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:15 pm

Does the woman work in the produce department? Is she the one who confronts/accuses Keith of taking the cigarettes? or does Jeremy?

It was mentioned that the produce department is near the front of the store. Is it also near the cash registers? Is the relevance of it simply that it's near where Keith would be when he attempts to walk out with the pack of cigarettes, or is something about the fact that it's produce relevant?

by **CoffeeBean** » Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:27 pm

Does the woman work in the produce department? No, she doesn't, but...(see below)
Is she the one who confronts/accuses Keith of taking the cigarettes? or does Jeremy? Jeremy is the one who confronts Keith

It was mentioned that the produce department is near the front of the store. Is it also near the cash registers? Not exactly "near" them but close enough to be relevant
Is the relevance of it simply that it's near where Keith would be when he attempts to walk out with the pack of cigarettes, or is something about the fact that it's produce relevant? It's not near where Keith would walk out, but it's fair to say that if it wasn't located relatively close to the front of the store then Keith probably would have gotten away with stealing the cigarettes

by **biograd** » Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:04 pm

Interesting--so the produce department is relevant in terms of how he was caught? Did Jeremy work in the produce department? did he see Keith take the pack of cigarettes?

Were the cigarettes in a place where customers could simply grab the packs themselves? or behind a counter where customers had to ask for them? is it relevant how exactly they were kept (on a shelf, in a cabinet, etc.)? Did the worker in the produce department have a uniquely clear view of the area where the cigarettes were located, by virtue of where the produce department was located? If so, is there a reason why Keith didn't notice the produce worker watching him? Was he/she behind a pile of produce that he/she was stacking, but still able to peek out around it?

by **CoffeeBean** » Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:00 pm

Interesting--so the produce department is relevant in terms of how he was caught? Yes
Did Jeremy work in the produce department? did he see Keith take the pack of cigarettes? Yes to both

Were the cigarettes in a place where customers could simply grab the packs themselves? Yes they could grab them, but it was not a "simple" thing to do...or behind a counter where customers had to ask for them? ...because of this.
is it relevant how exactly they were kept (on a shelf, in a cabinet, etc.)? Yes, they were on a shelf behind a counter where an employee could easily have access to them but customers could not easily reach them
Did the worker in the produce department have a uniquely clear view of the area where the cigarettes were located, by virtue of where the produce department was located? YES
If so, is there a reason why Keith didn't notice the produce worker watching him? There are TWO reasons why...
Was he/she behind a pile of produce that he/she was stacking, but still able to peek out around it? No this wasn't necessary due to something about Keith and about the other person involved in the situation

Good questions, nearly enough to put everything together...

by **Mimino** » Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:49 pm

Was the woman behind the counter where the cigarettes are stored?
Did Keith ask for the cigarettes?
Was Keith's plan to request cigarettes at the counter as an ordinary customer and then leave the shop without paying? and in case someone would confront him upon leaving the shop he would simply say they were his?
but this time the plan was foiled because it was Jeremy who confronted him and who had also seen him getting the cigarettes?

by **CoffeeBean** » Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm

Was the woman behind the counter where the cigarettes are stored? No, she wasn't - good q
Did Keith ask for the cigarettes? No
Was Keith's plan to request cigarettes at the counter as an ordinary customer and then leave the shop without paying? No
and in case someone would confront him upon leaving the shop he would simply say they were his? He may have tried to use this excuse, but based on something else that happened he would have known that it would have been pointless (see next answer)
but this time the plan was foiled because it was Jeremy who confronted him and who had also seen him getting the cigarettes? Yes, this is correct, Keith's plan to steal the cigarettes was foiled by Jeremy, who had seen Keith take the cigarettes and then confronted him about it which led to Keith giving the cigarettes to Jeremy.

by **biograd** » Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:37 pm

Was the woman a cashier? someone else working near the front of the store?

You keep mentioning the "other person involved" as though this is NOT the woman--so is there a fourth relevant person?

Was there nobody behind the cigarette counter at the time? so Keith went behind the counter himself to grab a pack? If so, did another customer try to buy a pack of cigarettes from Keith, thinking he was an employee, which drew attention?

by **CoffeeBean** » Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:30 pm

Was the woman a cashier? someone else working near the front of the store? She was a cashier and also a store manager who worked at the front part of the store, near the checkout area

You keep mentioning the "other person involved" as though this is NOT the woman--so is there a fourth relevant person?
No, but there are some FAs about the 3 people involved, where they were at certain times and what they said. One FA has mostly been cleared up, that it is unknown and also not necessary that Keith ever said anything during the relevant events. It is relevant that Jeremy saw Keith take the cigarettes and then at some time later confronted him about it, at which time Keith gave the cigarettes to Jeremy.

Was there nobody behind the cigarette counter at the time? Correct, at the counter/checkout area where the cigarettes were located there was nobody present
so Keith went behind the counter himself to grab a pack? He didn't have to go behind the counter to do it but this is ORT, Keith did take a pack from the area where they were kept on a shelf that is usually only accessed by cashiers or other employees of the store
If so, did another customer try to buy a pack of cigarettes from Keith, thinking he was an employee, which drew attention? No

by **trebor** » Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:32 pm

Is anyone involved in this puzzle visually impaired? Is the height of any party relevant? Is one of them deaf? Listening to headphones? (Thinking that maybe Keith wasn't aware of Jeremy watching because he either couldn't see or hear him.)

Is it relevant why the woman wasn't behind the till? What else she was doing?

Was Jeremy's prediction that Keith would walk towards him? after Jeremy had walked the 20 feet? and hand over the cigarettes? Was that the entirety of the prediction?

by **CoffeeBean** » Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:08 pm

Is anyone involved in this puzzle visually impaired? No, not relevant
Is the height of any party relevant? Is one of them deaf? Listening to headphones? No to these
(Thinking that maybe Keith wasn't aware of Jeremy watching because he either couldn't see or hear him.) YES, Keith was not aware of Jeremy - at one point during the events of the puzzle - because he could not see him!

Is it relevant why the woman wasn't behind the till? What else she was doing? It is relevant that she was not at the counter where the cigarettes were located, it is also relevant that she was doing another task (but the exact task she wasn't doing doesn't matter, it's just relevant that she was engaged in a task and not at the counter where the cigarettes were located)

Was Jeremy's prediction that Keith would walk towards him? No after Jeremy had walked the 20 feet? No - Jeremy did predict that he would walk about 20 feet, and then Keith would...and hand over the cigarettes?...do this, yes.
Was that the entirety of the prediction? That mostly sums up Jeremy's prediction about future events, that he would walk about 20 feet, then "something" would happen and Keith would hand over the cigarettes.

by **CoffeeBean** » Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:16 pm

HINT: The only relevant words spoken during this entire course of relevant events were spoken by Jeremy, it is not necessary or relevant that either the woman or Keith ever said anything.

Nearly done...

by **trebor** » Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:22 pm

Did Jeremy use a typical customer service greeting? Did he say something about Keith's choice in cigarettes? Did he ask Keith for a lighter? Did he ask Keith if he needed a lighter to go with the smokes? Did he say anything about security cameras? Make some remark like, "It's amazing how much of the storefront you can see from behind the apples"? Threaten to call security/the cops?

by **CoffeeBean** » Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:37 pm

Did Jeremy use a typical customer service greeting? Did he say something about Keith's choice in cigarettes? Did he ask Keith for a lighter? Did he ask Keith if he needed a lighter to go with the smokes? Did he say anything about security cameras? Make some remark like, "It's amazing how much of the storefront you can see from behind the apples"? No to all of this

Threaten to call security/the cops? No...BUT...Jeremy DID mention the police (ORT)...

by **biograd** » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:30 pm

Did Jeremy imply that there was already a police officer in the store (as a customer), who had seen Jeremy take the cigarettes? that him, the woman, or another store employee was formerly a police officer and hence was very familiar with shoplifting?

by **CoffeeBean** » Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:15 pm

Did Jeremy imply that there was already a police officer in the store (as a customer), who had seen Jeremy take the cigarettes? that him, the woman, or another store employee was formerly a police officer and hence was very familiar with shoplifting? No - Jeremy doesn't imply anything. He plainly tells Keith that he (Jeremy) saw him (Keith) take the cigarettes. HINT: The thing Jeremy says about the police has something to do with the prediction.

by **biograd** » Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:40 pm

Does Jeremy predict that if the police showed up and accused Jeremy of stealing, that he would give a particular excuse? Did he "predict" that there was a police officer nearby (and there actually was, because Jeremy had seen him)? that Keith would claim that *he* was an undercover police officer?

by **CoffeeBean** » Wed Aug 11, 2021 7:23 pm

Does Jeremy predict that if the police showed up and accused Jeremy of stealing, that he would give a particular excuse? Did he "predict" that there was a police officer nearby (and there actually was, because Jeremy had seen him)? that Keith would claim that *he* was an undercover police officer? No to all

HINT: Jeremy did not make any prediction about anything Keith would say. In order for Jeremy's prediction to be correct it is not necessary that Keith say anything at any time.

by **biograd** » Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:21 pm

So the prediction was EXCLUSIVELY about something KEITH would do? (As opposed to, like in my previous example, telling Keith that he "predicted" that a police officer had seen what Keith did--when in fact Jeremy had just seen a known police officer pass by)

by **CoffeeBean** » Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:57 pm

So the prediction was EXCLUSIVELY about something KEITH would do? Yes - Jeremy made an accurate statement about something Keith HAD DONE, then an accurate statement about what Keith WAS CURRENTLY DOING. Then Jeremy made an accurate prediction about something that Keith WOULD DO in the future, but this statement did not include anything that Keith would say, only what he would do.
(As opposed to, like in my previous example, telling Keith that he "predicted" that a police officer had seen what Keith did--when in fact Jeremy had just seen a known police officer pass by) Not like this, Jeremy did mention the police in his prediction and it is relevant that Jeremy saw Keith take the cigarettes. The woman's role is also very relevant.

by **Sundowner** » Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:51 am

what Keith had done = he took the cigarettes from the shelf?
what Keith was currently doing = he was trying to leave the shop without paying?
what Keith would do = he would return the cigarettes to Jeremy?

by **CoffeeBean** » Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:52 pm

what Keith had done = he took the cigarettes from the shelf? Yes
what Keith was currently doing = he was trying to leave the shop without paying? No, at the time Jeremy made the statement about what Keith was currently doing, Keith was not attempting to leave the store (and this is relevant in connection with something yet not discovered about one of the 3 main people involved)
what Keith would do = he would return the cigarettes to Jeremy? Yes, this was part of Jeremy's prediction about what Keith would do, but the prediction also included one other statement

by **trebor** » Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:24 pm

Is there something we have yet to discover about the woman? About Jeremy? About Keith?

Does any one of them have a relevant disability? Had either Jeremy or the woman seen Keith before? Perhaps even in surveillance footage, or on one of those "banned from the store" pictures?

Is it relevant what Keith was currently doing? Was he continuing to shop? Lighting up? Waiting for assistance? Looking out the window? Waiting for someone to pick him up? Attending to a guide animal?

Would this puzzle work if Keith had been stealing something else from the same area as the cigarettes, like gum or lottery tickets or whatever?

Does J predict that K will leave the store before the police arrive? That he will not be able to leave the store before police arrive? That K will have an interaction with the police? That K will be arrested? That K will be banned from the store?

by **CoffeeBean** » Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:46 pm

Is there something we have yet to discover about the woman? Yes! About Jeremy? About Keith? Yes but when you discover what is relevant about the woman you will also discover the remaining info about Jeremy and Keith (and see * below)

Does any one of them have a relevant disability? Had either Jeremy or the woman seen Keith before? Perhaps even in surveillance footage, or on one of those "banned from the store" pictures? No to all

Is it relevant what Keith was currently doing? YES, at one point in time during the relevant events Was he continuing to shop? No, but he may have acted like he was doing this because of what is relevant about the woman Lighting up? Waiting for assistance? Looking out the window? Waiting for someone to pick him up? Attending to a guide animal? No to the rest

Would this puzzle work if Keith had been stealing something else from the same area as the cigarettes, like gum or lottery tickets or whatever?
* Yes, if the only thing that changed in the scheme of the puzzle was the item that Keith stole then yes, it would still work - good q

Does J predict that K will leave the store before the police arrive? Yes, partial FA here but this is implied in what Jeremy predicts
That he will not be able to leave the store before police arrive? No, Jeremy makes it clear that Keith will leave the store before police arrive (but FA here)
That K will have an interaction with the police? That K will be arrested? NO to both! Actually what Jeremy says makes it known that neither of these things will happen!
That K will be banned from the store? No

by **Sundowner** » Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:31 am

Is the woman a store employee? is her normal workplace the tobacco counter? the cash desk? some other place?
Is she the store manager?
Did she also see Keith taking the cigarettes? Is this relevant?
Relevant why she was not at the tobacco counter?
DId Jeremy say to Keith something to the effect of "you either pay or return the cigarettes"? so, not threatening Keith to call the police?

by **CoffeeBean** » Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:11 pm

Is the woman a store employee? Yes is her normal workplace the tobacco counter? the cash desk? some other place? She works at all of these places, but her location during Keith's actions is what is most relevant (see next answer)
Is she the store manager? Yes
Did she also see Keith taking the cigarettes? NO, she didn't! Is this relevant? Yes!
Relevant why she was not at the tobacco counter? It is relevant that she wasn't at the area where the cigarettes were kept and it is relevant where she was. The reason that she wasn't at the cigarette counter is partly due to the fact that she is a store manager and one other relevant thing about the store
Did Jeremy say to Keith something to the effect of "you either pay or return the cigarettes"? so, not threatening Keith to call the police? This is VERY CLOSE to what Jeremy said to Keith, except Jeremy knew what Keith would do even before confronting him. It's also very close to what Jeremy said about the police. The sequence of events that led up to when Jeremy confronted Keith is directly related to what Jeremy told Keith and how Keith responded, and this is where the woman's role is very much relevant.

by **CoffeeBean** » Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:19 pm

RECAP (we are almost done)...

When Keith took the cigarettes, the woman was not watching him.
Jeremy could see Keith take the cigarettes, but the woman didn't see Keith take them.
Keith couldn't see Jeremy from where he was standing when he took the cigarettes.
The woman is a store manager who sometimes works at the place where the cigarettes are located but she wasn't working at that place when Keith was there.
Jeremy told the woman that Keith had taken cigarettes and then predicted what Keith would do when he was confronted.
Keith gave the cigarettes to Jeremy when Jeremy told him something and mentioned the police.
It's not known and not even necessary that Keith ever said anything.

All that's left to determine is the woman's relevance to the events and exactly what Jeremy said to Keith. HINT: Jeremy told the woman exactly what he was going to say to Keith before he ever spoke to Keith.

by **trebor** » Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:29 pm

Is Keith related to the woman? Does Jeremy say, "Give me the cigarettes and I won't tell [the woman] or the police." Perhaps the woman is his mother?

by **CoffeeBean** » Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:57 pm

Is Keith related to the woman? No
Does Jeremy say, "Give me the cigarettes and I won't tell [the woman] or the police." YES - When Jeremy confronts Keith he says, "You'll give me the cigarettes because if you don't I will call the police and report you"
Perhaps the woman is his mother? No - the relevance of the woman has nothing to do with her relation to Keith or Jeremy, it only has to do with the fact that she was not located at the place where the cigarettes were located and she is a store manager. These two facts and one other thing that was mentioned about her in the last recap are directly related to Keith's actions and Jeremy's prediction.

Almost at the end...

by **CoffeeBean** » Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:03 pm

HINTS: The woman could see Keith and Keith could see her, but she didn't see Keith take the cigarettes.
Jeremy could see Keith but Keith couldn't see Jeremy. Jeremy saw Keith take the cigarettes.
Jeremy made the statements about Keith to the woman before Keith left the store.

by **biograd** » Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:04 pm

Did KEITH know that the woman had not seen Keith take the cigarettes? If not, was this the gist of the prediction--namely that Keith would think the woman (but not Jeremy) saw him take the cigarettes? and that giving them to Jeremy would mean he wouldn't have to admit that he had been caught trying to steal them, so he would prefer to give them to Jeremy and not the woman?

by **CoffeeBean** » Sat Aug 28, 2021 2:47 pm

Did KEITH know that the woman had not seen Keith take the cigarettes? Yes, Keith knew she hadn’t seen him - good q

If not, was this the gist of the prediction--namely that Keith would think the woman (but not Jeremy) saw him take the cigarettes? and that giving them to Jeremy would mean he wouldn't have to admit that he had been caught trying to steal them, so he would prefer to give them to Jeremy and not the woman? Somewhat ORT but the woman’s relevance isn’t important in the prediction, it’s when Jeremy says what Keith HAD DONE and what he was NOW DOING.

by **trebor** » Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:28 pm

Had Keith watched the woman (can we also give her a name? How about Donna?) leave the front of the store? Watched her go somewhere or do something that meant she wouldn't see him take the smokes? Had he done something that resulted in Donna leaving her post, so that he thought he was in the clear to steal them? If so, did he cause a mess somewhere else?

Is this what Jeremy said Keith had done?

by **CoffeeBean** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:54 pm

Had Keith watched the woman (can we also give her a name? How about Donna?) leave the front of the store? She never left the front of the store, she stayed in the same place the whole time that Keith was in the store. She was not at the rack where the cigarettes were kept but she was able to see it from where she was.
Watched her go somewhere or do something that meant she wouldn't see him take the smokes? Yes, Keith was watching her do something that caused her to, at some point, not see him take the cigarettes
Had he done something that resulted in Donna leaving her post, No, Donna was at the same place from the time Keith entered the store until just before he walked out of the store, but...so that he thought he was in the clear to steal them? ...YES, Keith thought VERY MUCH that he was in the clear when he saw Donna doing something that made her not watch Keith
If so, did he cause a mess somewhere else? No

Is this what Jeremy said Keith had done? Partly - and the other part has been pretty much uncovered, so...

SPOILER

Here's how it all happened - It was late one night at the grocery store where I worked. The only people working in the store at the time besides me were Jeremy and Doris. Because it was near time to close, Doris was behind a counter at the front of the store doing end-of-day tasks. Jeremy was cleaning the produce area, I was at the back of the store doing something. I walked to the front of the store and saw a man standing near the cigarette counter, and Jeremy and Doris standing at the front of the store talking to each other. As I got nearer, I saw the man (Keith) start to slowly walk out of the store, Jeremy following him a short distance behind. I was about to ask Doris what was going on, when she said, "Wow, he was exactly right." Keith had been watching Doris, who was not able to keep her eyes on him because she was doing several things. When she wasn't looking at him, Keith took a pack of cigarettes. But Jeremy had been watching Keith the whole time from his place in the produce area, which was behind and to the side of the cigarette rack. Keith would have had to move away from the rack to be able to see Jeremy. As soon as Keith took the pack and put it in his pocket, Jeremy walked to the front of the store and stood next to Doris, pretending not to notice Keith. Jeremy said to Doris, "That man just took a pack of cigarettes and put them into his pocket. He doesn't know that I saw him do it, he thinks you are the only other person here. He's going to leave in just a minute, and I'm going to follow him outside. When we get outside I'm going to tell him exactly what I saw him do, tell him that I know he didn't see me watching him, then he's going to give back the cigarettes because I'll tell him that if he does that I won't call the police and report him." So this is exactly what happened next. When Jeremy came back inside and replaced the cigarettes, he said that he always watches the front area of the store when it's late and the store is about to close, that's when people are likely to come in and steal something because they think there's only one person working at the front and if they are busy then they aren't watching for people to take things. Jeremy also said that when he sees people take something he always confronts them and gives them the option to give the item back so that he doesn't call the police and report the person, and he said in his experience the people always give back what they took because they don't want the police to come after them.

Very nice work on a tricky puzzle!