lat-puzz.com

by **rcb** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:04 am

George had to pay a terrible price for his crime.

Please explain.

by **Balin** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:20 pm

George = H? A? M?
Price: monetary? Did he lose something? Did he die?
Was the crime against the law? Was it a felony? Misdemeanor? Did he commit the crime at all?

by **rcb** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:38 pm

George = H? A? M? H/T/M
Price: monetary? No Did he lose something? No Did he die? No
Was the crime against the law? Yes Was it a felony? I don't think so Misdemeanor? I think this one Did he commit the crime at all? Yes

by **Balin** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:28 pm

Did he intentionally commit the crime?
Did he steal something?
Was it a traffic violation?

by **rcb** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:07 pm

Did he intentionally commit the crime? Yes
Did he steal something? No
Was it a traffic violation? No

by **Twilightseeker** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:57 pm

Related to drug possession or other substance-related crime?

by **Westing1992** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:00 pm

Was this price imposed by the police/courts? A vigilante?
Was the crime art-related? Graffiti? Vandalism?
Did his crime have a victim? Did they suffer more than George expected?
Was the price something tangible, or perhaps an emotional toll?

by **rcb** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:07 am

Related to drug possession or other substance-related crime? Yes!

Was this price imposed by the police/courts? Yes, court A vigilante? No
Was the crime art-related? No Graffiti? No Vandalism? No
Did his crime have a victim? No Did they suffer more than George expected? No
Was the price something tangible, or perhaps an emotional toll? Unsure how to answer this, please rephrase

by **Twilightseeker** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:07 am

Was it drug possession, minor consuming?

by **rcb** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:20 am

Was it drug possession, minor consuming? Yes (cannabis consumption, to be exact)

by **Twilightseeker** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:08 am

Did he pay for his crime via the law? I.e. a legal punishment?

Was his "payment" of a physical nature? Was he injured, sick, hurt in some way physically? Did he miss out on some kind of opportunity?

Or did he pay in a metaphysical or mental/psychological way?

by **rcb** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:05 am

Did he pay for his crime via the law? I.e. a legal punishment? I'd say yes, since it was so ordered by a judge

Was his "payment" of a physical nature? Yes Was he injured, sick, hurt in some way physically? None of these Did he miss out on some kind of opportunity? No

Or did he pay in a metaphysical No or mental/psychological way? A bit of this also, as in every thing

by **Twilightseeker** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:22 am

Did he have to go to jail/prison? Was he ordered to do some sort of community service? Some kind of physical work/labor?

by **rcb** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:18 am

Did he have to go to jail/prison? No Was he ordered to do some sort of community service? No Some kind of physical work/labor? Yes

by **Balin** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:40 pm

Was the physical work he had to do related to drugs? To cannabis?

by **rcb** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Was the physical work he had to do related to drugs? To cannabis? No to both.

by **Twilightseeker** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:32 am

Did he have to clean/fix something? Do work outdoors? Lift heavy objects? Pick up refuse off the ground?

by **rcb** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:45 am

Did he have to clean/fix something? Do work outdoors? Lift heavy objects? Pick up refuse off the ground? No to all

by **Twilightseeker** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:32 am

Would his punishment have perhaps been different for a different misdemeanor offense? Is his having specifically possessed cannabis relevant to why he was given the job to do that he was?

by **rcb** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:19 pm

Would his punishment have perhaps been different for a different misdemeanor offense? Maybe, not sure. The judge was a strange guy. Is his having specifically possessed cannabis relevant to why he was given the job to do that he was? Yope, might grossly mislead.

by **Twilightseeker** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:06 am

Did his punishment involve doing something that the judge thought delivered a sense of poetic justice (or perhaps irony?) as well as actual justice?

by **rcb** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:26 pm

Did his punishment involve doing something that the judge thought delivered a sense of poetic justice No, if I understand correctly what this means (or perhaps irony? There was a bit of irony involved, but don't focus on it) as well as actual justice? Yes, that was the judge's intention

by **rcb** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:42 am

A short recap:

George had to pay a terrible price for his crime.

Established: the crime - cannabis posession and consumption, done intentionally. The punishment was imposed by a judge, so it was a "legal" punishment - albeit unorthodox, so to speak. It involved the defendant doing some work, but not some menial work, or community service.

What was the punishment is the last thing to be found out.

by **Twilightseeker** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:18 am

Was the work he had to do done indoors? or outdoors? did his punishment/work have any relation to the cannabis he was in trouble for possessing? anything to do with drugs/pharmaceuticals? Was he made to work in a garden?

by **rcb** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:31 pm

Was the work he had to do done indoors? This or outdoors? did his punishment/work have any relation to the cannabis he was in trouble for possessing? anything to do with drugs/pharmaceuticals? Was he made to work in a garden? No to the rest

by **biograd** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:46 am

Was the work something to help the justice system? something to help some other public institution (since you said it wasn't community service, i.d. think not though)? something to help a private individual? or was the "work" something like studying and taking a test about some aspect of the law?

by **rcb** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:32 am

Was the work something to help the justice system? something to help some other public institution (since you said it wasn't community service, i.d. think not though)? something to help a private individual? This! or was the "work" something like studying and taking a test about some aspect of the law? No to the rest

by **Twilightseeker** » Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:18 am

The individual he had to help: was a HAM? a HAF? age relevant? was it someone he knew? Did he work for them in their home? Did he do something physically demanding? Mentally demanding?

by **rcb** » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:18 am

The individual he had to help: was a HAM? HTM a HAF? age relevant? Only that he was a HTM was it someone he knew? Yes and beware FA Did he work for them in their home? Them? Did he do something physically demanding? Yope Mentally demanding? Yes-ish.

by **GalFisk** » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:09 am

Did he have to do something he was ashamed of? Was the teen a relative?

by **rcb** » Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:56 am

Did he have to do something he was ashamed of? No Was the teen a relative? No, and the same FA is lurking

by **JenBurdoo** » Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:49 pm

Did he know the other teen previously? Can we call the other teen Lennie? Was Lennie also a criminal? A cannabis user? Dealer?

Was he supposed to physically assist Lennie? Mentally assist him? Help him through some sort of therapy?

by **rcb** » Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:55 am

Did he know the other FA teen previously? Can we call the other FA teen Lennie? We could, but this would deepen the FA Was Lennie also a criminal? Yes A cannabis user? Yes Dealer?

Was he supposed to physically assist Lennie? No Mentally assist him? No Help him through some sort of therapy? Yes-ish, DOYD

by **GalFisk** » Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:10 am

Did he need to help himself? To clean his room?

by **rcb** » Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:13 am

Did he need to help himself? Yes. FA cleared. To clean his room? No

by **GalFisk** » Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:23 am

So George-Lennie had to help himself: at home? At school? At work? Did he have a job? Did the helping involve getting a job?

by **rcb** » Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:39 am

So George-Lennie had to help himself: at home? At school? At work? Did he have a job? Did the helping involve getting a job? It would supposedly help him at school. No to the rest.

by **Twilightseeker** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:48 am

Did he have to study something? Write something? Read something?

by **rcb** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:32 am

Did he have to study something? Write something? Read something? None of these, but very OTRT.

by **GalFisk** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:16 am

Did he have to: be somewhere? Listen to someone? Use the internet? Use a computer? Refrain from doing something?

by **rcb** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:47 am

Did he have to: be somewhere? Yes! Listen to someone? Use the internet? Use a computer? Refrain from doing something? Yes!

All the rest are a no. Very good progress!

by **Twilightseeker** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:56 pm

The place he had to be: school? home? a public place? elsewhere?

The thing he had to refrain from doing: is it something he would have done otherwise? something he liked doing? something illegal? Something problematic to himself?

Was he required to learn something?

by **rcb** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:23 am

The place he had to be: school? No home? No a public place? Yes! elsewhere? No

The thing he had to refrain from doing: is it something he would have done otherwise? Possibly something he liked doing? Yes something illegal? Yes Something problematic to himself? Probably

Was he required to learn something? No

by **Twilightseeker** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:32 am

Was he indoors? outdoors? in a specific public location? was he surrounded by other people?
did he have to abstain from possessing/consuming cannabis? some other activity? was it an activity related to his original crime?

by **rcb** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:44 am

Was he indoors? Yes outdoors? So, no in a specific public location? Yes was he surrounded by other people? Yes
did he have to abstain from possessing/consuming cannabis? Yes (possession and consumption) some other activity? No was it an activity related to his original crime? The one that he had to perform, no. The one that he had to abstain from, yes (as it was the original activity)

by **Twilightseeker** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:59 am

Did he have to be in a library? A post office? A public office of some type (governmental or administrative)? A courthouse? A police department? Did he have to work in a marijuana dispensary (somehow that would be quite fitting...)?

by **rcb** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:20 am

Did he have to be in a library? A post office? A public office of some type (governmental or administrative)? A courthouse? This one! No to the rest A police department? Did he have to work in a marijuana dispensary (somehow that would be quite fitting...)?

by **Twilightseeker** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:56 am

Did he have to work for the judge who sentenced him? Someone else? Did he have to do a task relating to his own crime?

by **rcb** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:11 am

Did he have to work for the judge who sentenced him? Not for him, but OTRT Someone else? Yope, not for, but... Did he have to do a task relating to his own crime? No

by **Twilightseeker** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:47 am

Did he work with someone, like the judge or another person in the courthouse? Work against them? Near them? Was he work involved with them at all? did he interact with the judge/someone else during his work? Did he do the job of someone else who had previously done (i.e. a previously established role in the courthouse)?

by **rcb** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:53 am

Did he work with someone, like the judge or another person in the courthouse? Work against them? Near them? This is closer - he had to be in the same room with them (judge and at least one, at most a few people in the courthouse) Was he work involved with them at all? DOYD did he interact with the judge/someone else during his work? No Did he do the job of someone else who had previously done (i.e. a previously established role in the courthouse)? No

by **Twilightseeker** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:50 am

Was his work in the courtroom(s)? In another office? Inside the building itself? In some other area of the building (i.e. bathrooms, security stations)...?

by **rcb** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:57 am

Was his work in the courtroom(s)? In the courtroom, yes In another office? No Inside the building itself? Yes In some other area of the building (i.e. bathrooms, security stations)...? No

by **Balin** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:56 pm

Was his work around others getting sentenced for the same crime?

by **rcb** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:11 pm

Was his work around others getting sentenced for the same crime? Irrel.

by **Twilightseeker** » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:26 am

Did he do clerical work? did he organize something? process something? do something for the judge? the lawyers? the defendants? the prosecutors? the bailiff? Is it relevant what kind of court (criminal or civil)?

by **rcb** » Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:02 am

Did he do clerical work? No did he organize something? No process something? No do something for the judge? Yope. Not "for", but "relating to"... the lawyers? Yope, see previous. the defendants? No the prosecutors? Possibly the bailiff? Possibly Is it relevant what kind of court (criminal or civil)? Not really

HINT: If this line of questioning seems to give no clues, a bit of profiling our defendant might work.

by **biograd** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:17 pm

Was he in high school? Would he soon be applying to college? possibly even intending to major in something like criminal justice or political science? Would his work in a courtroom strengthen his application?

by **rcb** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:58 am

Was he in high school? Yes Would he soon be applying to college? No possibly even intending to major in something like criminal justice or political science? Irrel. Would his work in a courtroom strengthen his application? Irrel.

by **psymann** » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:12 pm

Did George have knowledge and/or a skill which made him useful in the courtroom?

Was George expected to learn something?

If George been convicted of stealing a car, would the judge still have made him work in the courtroom?

If you'd been sentenced for the same crime by the same judge, would you likely have been given the same sentence? Would I?

by **rcb** » Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:47 am

Did George have knowledge and/or a skill Yes! which made him useful in the courtroom? But no. His skill is unrelated to the courtroom.

Was George expected to learn something? Yes.-ish. Might mislead.

If George been convicted of stealing a car, would the judge still have made him work in the courtroom? Highly unlikely.

If you'd been sentenced for the same crime by the same judge, would you likely have been given the same sentence? Definitely not. Would I? I don't know, I need to know more about you to answer this one.

by **Twilightseeker** » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:30 am

Is his particular skill related to his new "job"? Related to his crime (i.e. marijuana)?

by **rcb** » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:26 am

Is his particular skill related to his new "job"? Yes Related to his crime (i.e. marijuana)? No, not at all

by **psymann** » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:11 pm

The work that George was doing - it:
- made no (or almost no) difference to the running of court proceedings?
- was for the benefit of person(s) outside the courtroom?
- was intended to help George by keeping him busy?

by **rcb** » Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:18 pm

The work that George was doing - it:
- made no (or almost no) difference to the running of court proceedings? Yes
- was for the benefit of person(s) outside the courtroom? No
- was intended to help George by keeping him busy? Yes!

by **psymann** » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:22 pm

Hmm, I feel I ought to be drawing closer to an answer. Um.

Did George need to move to perform his job? A little? A lot? Not at all?

by **Twilightseeker** » Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:31 am

Is the relevant skill something considered rather trivial? useful? is it very common?

by **rcb** » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:12 am

Hmm, I feel I ought to be drawing closer to an answer. Um. We are indeed very close. Very.

Did George need to move to perform his job? A little? A lot? Not at all? Hard to answer. He didn't need to dance around but didn't need to stand like a statue either. Some motion is involved.

Is the relevant skill something considered rather trivial? No useful? DOYD is it very common? I'd say no.

by **Twilightseeker** » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:17 am

Does it involve sorting or organizing something? any writing/drawing involved? Papers involved? Could he sit down and do this?

by **rcb** » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:21 am

Does it involve sorting or organizing something? No any writing/drawing involved? Yes! Papers involved? Paper and pencil, presumably Could he sit down and do this? Yes, and I'm sure he did exactly that.

by **Twilightseeker** » Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:53 am

Did he serve as a court artist?

by **rcb** » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:18 am

Did he serve as a court artist? Yes

******* SPOILER *******

According to a BBC article dated last year, a 16-year-old boy has been ordered by a judge in Northern Ireland to become sort of an unofficial court sketch artist.

The teenager appeared at Londonderry Magistrates' Court after failing a police drugs test. He admitted consuming cannabis before he was arrested. The District Judge ordered him to come in the courtroom in the following days and draw him and the solicitors for two hours each day, adding that if he looked stoned, he would be arrested. It seems that the boy's lawyer previously pointed out that his client was "bored" in school but did have an interest in art.

Thanks to all who participated and especially to Twilightseeker for the final solve.

by **peter365** » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:04 am

Hi RCB I wasn't playing this puzzle but I was following it with interest. I do like the judge's 'thinking outside the box' and wished more of them were as imaginative as this one.

I do have one small bit of, what I hope is constructive feedback, on the puzzle itself if you don't mind . Is the puzzle statement really in keeping with the solution as I'm not sure anyone would reasonably describe this as a terrible price to pay?

I feel there was probably a more lateral way of phrasing it.

by **rcb** » Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:48 pm

Hi Peter, thanks for your feedback. I wrote the puzzle statement the way I did, because in the article in which I first read about the story (and which can be found here), the author humorously states that Jail sounds better than the punishment he received.

I apologize if that doesn't sound funny - or lateral, for that matter - it did sound like that to me at the time.

by **psymann** » Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:59 pm

I did wonder a little about the puzzle statement, but assumed that he just didn't like drawing, so it worked ok for me, if a bit odd.

Oh - and I'm claiming a point for the final solve too although my "I think I've got it" was deliberately cryptic: "Hmm, I feel I ought to be drawing closer to an answer. Um.". Perhaps we can call it a draw? (pun very much intended that time too ;-))

And in case you were wondering: no, I certainly wouldn't have received that punishment either. Not unless the judge only likes pictures of stickmen.

by **rcb** » Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:24 pm

For sure you deserve that point and giving the fact that my lawyer-related humour was not of the best quality, we can even declare the result a mistrial.

I should have known it, but I am myself a lawyer. :roll:

by **Twilightseeker** » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:01 pm

Ah! I like this solution.

by **WiZ** » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:17 pm

A curious thing: My job is to assess the submissions of lawyers for correctness. On my coffee breaks, I come to this forum, open up the puzzles I'm hosting and do, well, just that.

by **Twilightseeker** » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:51 pm

I do a similar thing in terms of cognitive processes. I'm a graduate student in linguistics, and when people speak to me I find myself analyzing their linguistic tendencies.

by **peter365** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:33 am

That's a coincidence WiZ I have a similar job in Banking. I make sure that when we communicate with customers and staff we don't tell any fibs about our products, processes and prices.